eminiviper.com
I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:
http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2300&whichpage=30
We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com
From 6/8/09:
jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.
cba33558: Hey Jim -
Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...
The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.
The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.
In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.
Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...
jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.
I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.
Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.
Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2300&whichpage=30
We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com
From 6/8/09:
jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.
cba33558: Hey Jim -
Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...
The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.
The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.
In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.
Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...
jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.
I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.
Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.
Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
Hi,
I have been using the Viper free trial for a little over a week. I have had impressive success so far, considering my limited time using the system.
Although the entries do not plot on the chart, they are explained in the webinars and videos and they are fairly simple. You do have to be able to recognize when recent swing high or low is taken out. Not all that difficult.
I am impressed with their pricing model. $100.00 per month with no contract. Most systems are looking for $2K to 5K up front. With this model, they will never make any money unless their clients are happy with the system and continue to pay month after month.
In my VERY limited experiance so far, most of the signals seem good, (I'm running about 60% winners so far). Stops are relatively small (4 to 8 ticks on the ES). And the system always seems to catch big moves and keep you in for the majority of the move. Based on this I'm quite sure I will pay for the first month at least. We'll see how it goes.
I have been using the Viper free trial for a little over a week. I have had impressive success so far, considering my limited time using the system.
Although the entries do not plot on the chart, they are explained in the webinars and videos and they are fairly simple. You do have to be able to recognize when recent swing high or low is taken out. Not all that difficult.
I am impressed with their pricing model. $100.00 per month with no contract. Most systems are looking for $2K to 5K up front. With this model, they will never make any money unless their clients are happy with the system and continue to pay month after month.
In my VERY limited experiance so far, most of the signals seem good, (I'm running about 60% winners so far). Stops are relatively small (4 to 8 ticks on the ES). And the system always seems to catch big moves and keep you in for the majority of the move. Based on this I'm quite sure I will pay for the first month at least. We'll see how it goes.
Viper musings:
I'm getting a kick watching these Viper moderators trying to shoot live trades. I just don't know what the difficulty is but I have an idea.
http://vipertradingsystems.com/Viper081209.html
Today they have 3 marketing videos. The first shows all great trades that you could have taken, of course, after the fact. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I want to point out that the ES charts have once again taken on different range bar settings--a 5 for trading and a 12 for guidance. How any of the Viper users knew this as they started the trading day is a great question that will probably not get answered.
The second video is shot live with a DOM, but for some strange reason, the trade was not entered at the appropriate time. In fact, it was entered at 998.50 instead of 993.50. I find almost impossible that the moderator would chase a trade after it moved 5 points from his admitted entry. One would probably only do that if the move after entry worked out, which in this case it did. Does the Viper teach users to chase trades after they already have huge runs? I don't think so because a great emphasis is placed on risk/reward. So here we have a marketing ploy, in my opinion. Oh and did I mention the range bar setting for this trade are 5 and 7, not 5 and 12. Confusing isn't it?
Run the video and if the trade goes in your favor, you can then start telling everyone how great it is. If the trade doesn't work out, well then you simply don't have any live videos. So this ES trade and the TF trade are sort of a hybrid live trade in that both of them were "started" quite late and then recorded after the trade moved in the moderators favor.
The Russell trade was more aggressive amd unexplainable than the ES. The correct entry per Viper rules was 563.00 and yet the moderator entered at 568.50. That's a whopping $50O of lost profit. Of course, by the time he started voice recording on the video, the price was a point in his favor, but that's not the whole story. The moderator entered this trade when Viper had clearly indicated an exit! He even says so.
Note to the moderators of Viper if you happen to read this: You will do a lot more for your fledgling vendor business if you shoot your videos LIVE in realtime before, not after, you enter a trade. What your currently doing is just not believable, at least to me. The members of this forum are generally sophisticated traders which is why you came here in the first place--to attract an audience who could give you and Viper some credibilty. Please don't insult their collective intelligence.
I'm getting a kick watching these Viper moderators trying to shoot live trades. I just don't know what the difficulty is but I have an idea.
http://vipertradingsystems.com/Viper081209.html
Today they have 3 marketing videos. The first shows all great trades that you could have taken, of course, after the fact. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I want to point out that the ES charts have once again taken on different range bar settings--a 5 for trading and a 12 for guidance. How any of the Viper users knew this as they started the trading day is a great question that will probably not get answered.
The second video is shot live with a DOM, but for some strange reason, the trade was not entered at the appropriate time. In fact, it was entered at 998.50 instead of 993.50. I find almost impossible that the moderator would chase a trade after it moved 5 points from his admitted entry. One would probably only do that if the move after entry worked out, which in this case it did. Does the Viper teach users to chase trades after they already have huge runs? I don't think so because a great emphasis is placed on risk/reward. So here we have a marketing ploy, in my opinion. Oh and did I mention the range bar setting for this trade are 5 and 7, not 5 and 12. Confusing isn't it?
Run the video and if the trade goes in your favor, you can then start telling everyone how great it is. If the trade doesn't work out, well then you simply don't have any live videos. So this ES trade and the TF trade are sort of a hybrid live trade in that both of them were "started" quite late and then recorded after the trade moved in the moderators favor.
The Russell trade was more aggressive amd unexplainable than the ES. The correct entry per Viper rules was 563.00 and yet the moderator entered at 568.50. That's a whopping $50O of lost profit. Of course, by the time he started voice recording on the video, the price was a point in his favor, but that's not the whole story. The moderator entered this trade when Viper had clearly indicated an exit! He even says so.
Note to the moderators of Viper if you happen to read this: You will do a lot more for your fledgling vendor business if you shoot your videos LIVE in realtime before, not after, you enter a trade. What your currently doing is just not believable, at least to me. The members of this forum are generally sophisticated traders which is why you came here in the first place--to attract an audience who could give you and Viper some credibilty. Please don't insult their collective intelligence.
Since I mentioned this in a previous post, some of you have asked me what indicators are available for free or a lot less than Viper charges that mimic or act like Viper, so here goes. Keep in mind you will have to tweek the settings on these and compare how they plot against Viper.
The paint bars are similiar to heiken ashi.
The Viper itself behaves like a slow stochastic with a color change component. A NT script writer is working on one now that is actually a bit more accurate than Viper and will hopefully be a free download. I have a beta version that looks very promising.
And here's a tip for staying in the those potential runners even though the price closed above/below Viper and yet continues to move in your favor. This occurs in volatile instruments like EuroFX, DAX, Russell and, Crude. Try a 9 EMA. Generally, the price will be equal to or better than Viper when the bar closes so you're no worse off.
The paint bars are similiar to heiken ashi.
The Viper itself behaves like a slow stochastic with a color change component. A NT script writer is working on one now that is actually a bit more accurate than Viper and will hopefully be a free download. I have a beta version that looks very promising.
And here's a tip for staying in the those potential runners even though the price closed above/below Viper and yet continues to move in your favor. This occurs in volatile instruments like EuroFX, DAX, Russell and, Crude. Try a 9 EMA. Generally, the price will be equal to or better than Viper when the bar closes so you're no worse off.
I monitored their room for a few weeks. I was curious to see if my impressions of of their method agreed with Jim Kane's.
I got turned off on these guys when they ignored and completely forgot losing trades that had occurred and only cheerleaded the winners, which for the most part were noted after the fact.
My impression of their "system" is little more than a repackaging of a moving average crossover method using breakout of a previous fractal as an entry and a higher frequency chart as a filter. It is subject to the same problems all crossover systems have- entering a trend late and exposing the trader to losses during chop. It was easier to "read" because of it simplification of the crossover representation(the color changing line) but not as earth shattering as their original claims and posts represented.
I got turned off on these guys when they ignored and completely forgot losing trades that had occurred and only cheerleaded the winners, which for the most part were noted after the fact.
My impression of their "system" is little more than a repackaging of a moving average crossover method using breakout of a previous fractal as an entry and a higher frequency chart as a filter. It is subject to the same problems all crossover systems have- entering a trend late and exposing the trader to losses during chop. It was easier to "read" because of it simplification of the crossover representation(the color changing line) but not as earth shattering as their original claims and posts represented.
I really think these guys have something. My trial period is almost up and I will be happy to pay their monthly fee. I go to their training webinars twice a week, and their teaching is like a $2000 seminar. Everytime I attend, I am amazed at their insight into trading the markets and they are not even charging us for it. Phantasmagoria, you must just be jealous, why don't you spend more time trading and less time griping and you will probably make money like I am. I have searched high and low for a simple trading system and I believe I have found it. You guys say someone is working on a free version of their system, ask them if they will teach me each week how to use it, otherwise I believe I am getting my money's worth with them.
Angel - are you related to any of them?
I must admit I love this thread...! It really is amusing and I get a kick out of reading the funny posts - LOL!
Oh, and for those of you commenting in here that really want to try trade the futures market with a moving average and some heiken ashi candles, well I have two words for you - 'Good Luck'...LOL...!
Oh, and for those of you commenting in here that really want to try trade the futures market with a moving average and some heiken ashi candles, well I have two words for you - 'Good Luck'...LOL...!
I wanted to take a minute to make a few comments here.
First and foremost, any time any one wants to sell something proprietary to trade....RUN.... as fast as you can in the other direction. This is absolutely 100% BS! Everyone has, in every charting package they might use, all they need to trade profitably without exception.
Years ago, long before computers were invented, traders were making fortunes in the markets. They did not use indicators, or sophisticated software, they just used price. They learned where buyers would typically enter the market (support) or where sellers would enter the market (resistance). They learned the personality of their chosen markets, sectors, etc, to trade, and did so in a simple fashion. It was elagance at it's best.
If technology and PC's were the answer to trading, then the number of winning traders would far outweigh the losing ones. But that is not the case. So it's not about computers, or proprietary software. It's about the basics which most traders ultimately skip, and go right to the indictors that are going to make them all the money. If only that were true.
I am not saying don't use indicators, they have value, but their value is only added to your existing knowledge of how to read a chart. Once you understand the price, and support and resistance, you will find that for the most part that is all you need. An indicator here and there is just to enhance what you already know.
We as traders complicate such a simple process of buying and selling. We clutter our charts and our minds with all sorts of nonsense. Everything you need to know is right on the chart. Isn't that what the indicators and so called proprietary software read? Don't they reference price? Relying solely on indicators is like driving in your car while constantly looking in the rear view mirror. You are going to have a wreck and never reach your destination.
Keep it simple! Keep it basic!
Master One Market
Master One Chart
Master One Setup
Master Your Emotions
Master Your Trading
Master Your Financial Destiny
After 12+ years as a trader, I know of no other way!
First and foremost, any time any one wants to sell something proprietary to trade....RUN.... as fast as you can in the other direction. This is absolutely 100% BS! Everyone has, in every charting package they might use, all they need to trade profitably without exception.
Years ago, long before computers were invented, traders were making fortunes in the markets. They did not use indicators, or sophisticated software, they just used price. They learned where buyers would typically enter the market (support) or where sellers would enter the market (resistance). They learned the personality of their chosen markets, sectors, etc, to trade, and did so in a simple fashion. It was elagance at it's best.
If technology and PC's were the answer to trading, then the number of winning traders would far outweigh the losing ones. But that is not the case. So it's not about computers, or proprietary software. It's about the basics which most traders ultimately skip, and go right to the indictors that are going to make them all the money. If only that were true.
I am not saying don't use indicators, they have value, but their value is only added to your existing knowledge of how to read a chart. Once you understand the price, and support and resistance, you will find that for the most part that is all you need. An indicator here and there is just to enhance what you already know.
We as traders complicate such a simple process of buying and selling. We clutter our charts and our minds with all sorts of nonsense. Everything you need to know is right on the chart. Isn't that what the indicators and so called proprietary software read? Don't they reference price? Relying solely on indicators is like driving in your car while constantly looking in the rear view mirror. You are going to have a wreck and never reach your destination.
Keep it simple! Keep it basic!
Master One Market
Master One Chart
Master One Setup
Master Your Emotions
Master Your Trading
Master Your Financial Destiny
After 12+ years as a trader, I know of no other way!
quote:
Originally posted by cba33558
I must admit I love this thread...! It really is amusing and I get a kick out of reading the funny posts - LOL!
Oh, and for those of you commenting in here that really want to try trade the futures market with a moving average and some heiken ashi candles, well I have two words for you - 'Good Luck'...LOL...!
Looks like we have a vendor who's feelings are hurt.
Isn't that essentially what Viper is? A paint bar study and a modified MA/stochastics that changes colors with the trend? I am looking at a slow stochastic that is even more accurate than Viper at the turns but it has no predictive power. It simply lags less. There isn't an indicator that I'm aware of that will tell you where the market is going, only where its been.
Notice there was no mention of the dubious marketing videos or the lack of clarity on range settings. I wonder why.
quote:
Originally posted by Angel
I really think these guys have something. My trial period is almost up and I will be happy to pay their monthly fee. I go to their training webinars twice a week, and their teaching is like a $2000 seminar. Everytime I attend, I am amazed at their insight into trading the markets and they are not even charging us for it. Phantasmagoria, you must just be jealous, why don't you spend more time trading and less time griping and you will probably make money like I am. I have searched high and low for a simple trading system and I believe I have found it. You guys say someone is working on a free version of their system, ask them if they will teach me each week how to use it, otherwise I believe I am getting my money's worth with them.
Angel, it's not about jealousy, it's about integrity. And I'm happy to learn you are a satisfied customer. I am simply pointing out glaring inconsistencies and encouraging any prospective purchaser to get answers to the tough questions.
I have attended every single webinar and I don't question the generosity of the time given by the moderators. I question the marketing tactics and lack of clarity.
Even on the Viper forum, the moderators have no good answer to trish120 who asked how one determines the range bar settings. The answer was it's a "personal preference." How ambiguous is that?
http://www.vipertradingsystems.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19
We've seen from the videos those ranges change daily like the weather.
Viper started not too long ago with proprietary pivots that were essential to the method and have now been scrapped with no explanation. The moderators once claimed they couldn't trade successfully without those pivots.
The great majority of vendors are failed traders who seek to prey off the uneducated and naive. The folks at Viper have an opportunity to prove they are not of that ilk by coming to this forum and answering some of the issues that are raised. Instead, cba33558 choose to laugh in our faces. What does that tell you?
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Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.
I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.
If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.
I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.
If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.
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