eminiviper.com

I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:

http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2300&whichpage=30

We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.


cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...


jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.

Originally posted by phantasmagoria

I tried to upload/attach my NT files, but the they are in not in acceptable format.

Using the Viper "rules," I think the results will be better if one uses a 21 period for the trade chart.

That's why I zip them :)

The 21 period LinReg is their default.

tom - be a pal and give me a step by step on how to download your stuff

for some reason i cant it to download

tia

Originally posted by gio5959

tom - be a pal and give me a step by step on how to download your stuff

for some reason i cant it to download

tia

Tia,

1)Click on each file name in the post and save each one to your desktop.
2)Open Ninja and click on File, Utilities, Import NinjaScript...
3)Click Yes when asked if the file is from a trusted source.
4)Navigate to your Desktop.
5)Choose the filename beginning with the letter "b" and click Open.
6)Repeat #2,3,& 5 for filename beginning with the letter "c".
7)Double-click the filename beginning with the number "60" and extract both .xml files to your \NinjaTrader 6.5\templates\Chart folder, found in your My Documents or Documents folder.
8)Click on File, New, Chart...
9)Select your instrument, days back, and preferred range bar size for the Trade chart, and choose the UnViper Trade template
10)Repeat #8&9 for the Trend chart, choosing the UnViper Trend template.

Hope that helps.
-Tom

Originally posted by tomgilb

Here are the [NinjaTrader] indicators I use to emulate the Viper Trading Systems' indicators. Also, I've included templates for the Trade and Trend charts.

The viper colors are almost exact, and the paint bars are close enough to still use their "rules", being as vague as they are...

Import the _Lin_Reg_Color_Paint_v01.zip and SessionPivots_V2.zip NinjaScript files. Do not unzip these files.

Unzip the UnViper templates.zip and move the UnViper Trade.xml and UnViper Trend.xml to your \NinjaTrader 6.5\templates\Chart folder

Open two new charts and load the UnViper Trade on one and UnViper Trend on the other. These templates will have all the correct settings.

The only thing not included is the Un-VTI3. This Viper indicator is useless anyway so I didn't bother to try to figure it out.

-Tom

Click link to access uploaded file:
_Lin_Reg_Color_Paint_v01.zip

Click link to access uploaded file:
SessionPivots_V2.zip

Click link to access uploaded file:
UnViper templates.zip

I forgot to include the UnViper Breakout in the template. I don't use it but if you want it, just add the DonchianChannel indicator to your Trade chart with a 5 period, with the plot style of Square, and set the Lower plot color to Red and the Mean plot color to Transparent.

Here is my critique of the Viper Trading Systems’ indicators and autotraders:

First, an overview:
I have actually subscribed ($99 USD/mo) to the manual system for 4 months, and have sim traded the indicators for the entire time. This is because I could not consistently be “nicely green” using their indicators and their rules. Too many false breakouts. You are probably wondering why I would continue for so long without success. Here’s why: I liked the simplicity of the system and I thought that there was some value in their breakout trading strategy, and I figured I could eventually find a tweak that would be profitable. The problem with their indicators and rules is that you will “lose your shirt” if you actually follow them. This is not a system that can be autotraded; you must know how to trade price action, using these indicators only as confirmation. It doesn’t bother me that Viper is just a 21 period LinReg with colors and that it is combined with other renamed free indicators and leased as a package, if it was actually profitable. Along the way I did learn a lot, however. Gray Donahoo taught me some good tips, I’ve spent 4 more months looking at charts, and I was introduced to range bars. I’ve taken what I’ve learned and moved on, using the free UnViper indicators in a slightly different way than the official Viper configuration. I’m now green more often than not.

I also subscribed ($299 USD/mo) to the autotraders for one month because I couldn’t evaluate them thoroughly in the 2 week trial. I have determined that, at best, they are leasing a product that is still in development or, at worst, they are peddling a perpetually curve-fitted product with blow-out drawdowns. See my post on page 1 at [url]http://www.mypivots.com/Board/Topic/4527/1/automated-trading-systems-work[/url]

That’s a total of $700 I have to recover with my trading profits! I think of it as an educational cost.

Second, their manual system:
What’s right:
-It’s simple and uncluttered.
-Gary Donahoo is gracious and helpful.
-Linda Donahoo is efficient with licensing and subscriptions.
What’s wrong:
-The new Viper II is useless, painfully ugly to look at, and is a Strategy instead of an Indicator.
-The rules are vague requiring trading skills apart from the indicators to be profitable.
-They do not show any live trades in the live chat room giving the impression that they are disingenuous.
-The live chat room is live but not a chat room. They claim GoToWebinar can’t be configured so that attendees can chat with each other. It’s as if they want to control the conversations.
-My emails were nearly all ignored.
-The forum is sanitized because posts must first be approved, and any negative post is disapproved.
-Charles Boyle is obliviously rude and condescending, with a scratchy mic he won’t replace.

Third, their autotraders:
Two words: caveat emptor. None of the autotraders nor their iterations will be profitable long term without huge drawdowns. Some are in the black as of today, backtested by me starting at rollover in June 2009, but no one would actually endure the red ink to get there. Some were never above water at all, starting at rollover in June 2009. See attached spreadsheet.

I question the veracity of their published results because they are often way different than mine. When I put their scripts on my charts, I get different results. I’ve spent as much of my time as I am willing, to carefully prove to myself and anyone else who’s interested, that real money would be at unacceptable risk with these autotraders, so I’m not going to chase the disparity any further. You should do your own due diligence anyway.

Their published results are only from the inception of the script, with no backtested data. This omission is really unforgivable and gives insight into the integrity of the company. Rich Staiton, their autotrader programmer, is very defensive of his scripts with any criticism about their dubious performance. Combine this with their locked-down forum, their non-chat chat room, their non-live trades in the live room, and you can begin to paint an unflattering picture of Viper Trading Systems. All of this could be put to rest with forthright transparency, unless of course they have something to hide.

-Tom

Originally posted by tomgilb

Originally posted by gio5959

tom - be a pal and give me a step by step on how to download your stuff

for some reason i cant it to download

tia

Tia,

that did it - thanks

no biggie but what i meant by 'tia' is 'thanks in advance'

im gio5959

have a good weekend

and tia again :)

1)Click on each file name in the post and save each one to your desktop.
2)Open Ninja and click on File, Utilities, Import NinjaScript...
3)Click Yes when asked if the file is from a trusted source.
4)Navigate to your Desktop.
5)Choose the filename beginning with the letter "b" and click Open.
6)Repeat #2,3,& 5 for filename beginning with the letter "c".
7)Double-click the filename beginning with the number "60" and extract both .xml files to your \NinjaTrader 6.5\templates\Chart folder, found in your My Documents or Documents folder.
8)Click on File, New, Chart...
9)Select your instrument, days back, and preferred range bar size for the Trade chart, and choose the UnViper Trade template
10)Repeat #8&9 for the Trend chart, choosing the UnViper Trend template.

Hope that helps.
-Tom

Tia,

that did it - thanks

no biggie but what i meant by 'tia' is 'thanks in advance'

im gio5959

have a good weekend

and tia again :)

gio5959,

My bad. I missed that texting acronym. :)

Originally posted by phantasmagoria

...I tried to upload/attach my NT files, but the they are in not in acceptable format...

What is the file extension for an NT file? What is the file type?

Originally posted by day trading

Originally posted by phantasmagoria

...I tried to upload/attach my NT files, but the they are in not in acceptable format...

What is the file extension for an NT file? What is the file type?

.cs for indicators .xml for chart templates.

Originally posted by tomgilb

Here is my critique of the Viper Trading Systems’ indicators and autotraders:

First, an overview:
I have actually subscribed ($99 USD/mo) to the manual system for 4 months, and have sim traded the indicators for the entire time. This is because I could not consistently be “nicely green” using their indicators and their rules. Too many false breakouts. You are probably wondering why I would continue for so long without success. Here’s why: I liked the simplicity of the system and I thought that there was some value in their breakout trading strategy, and I figured I could eventually find a tweak that would be profitable. The problem with their indicators and rules is that you will “lose your shirt” if you actually follow them. This is not a system that can be autotraded; you must know how to trade price action, using these indicators only as confirmation. It doesn’t bother me that Viper is just a 21 period LinReg with colors and that it is combined with other renamed free indicators and leased as a package, if it was actually profitable. Along the way I did learn a lot, however. Gray Donahoo taught me some good tips, I’ve spent 4 more months looking at charts, and I was introduced to range bars. I’ve taken what I’ve learned and moved on, using the free UnViper indicators in a slightly different way than the official Viper configuration. I’m now green more often than not.

I also subscribed ($299 USD/mo) to the autotraders for one month because I couldn’t evaluate them thoroughly in the 2 week trial. I have determined that, at best, they are leasing a product that is still in development or, at worst, they are peddling a perpetually curve-fitted product with blow-out drawdowns. See my post on page 1 at [url]http://www.mypivots.com/Board/Topic/4527/1/automated-trading-systems-work[/url]

That’s a total of $700 I have to recover with my trading profits! I think of it as an educational cost.

Second, their manual system:
What’s right:
-It’s simple and uncluttered.
-Gary Donahoo is gracious and helpful.
-Linda Donahoo is efficient with licensing and subscriptions.
What’s wrong:
-The new Viper II is useless, painfully ugly to look at, and is a Strategy instead of an Indicator.
-The rules are vague requiring trading skills apart from the indicators to be profitable.
-They do not show any live trades in the live chat room giving the impression that they are disingenuous.
-The live chat room is live but not a chat room. They claim GoToWebinar can’t be configured so that attendees can chat with each other. It’s as if they want to control the conversations.
-My emails were nearly all ignored.
-The forum is sanitized because posts must first be approved, and any negative post is disapproved.
-Charles Boyle is obliviously rude and condescending, with a scratchy mic he won’t replace.

Third, their autotraders:
Two words: caveat emptor. None of the autotraders nor their iterations will be profitable long term without huge drawdowns. Some are in the black as of today, backtested by me starting at rollover in June 2009, but no one would actually endure the red ink to get there. Some were never above water at all, starting at rollover in June 2009. See attached spreadsheet.

I question the veracity of their published results because they are often way different than mine. When I put their scripts on my charts, I get different results. I’ve spent as much of my time as I am willing, to carefully prove to myself and anyone else who’s interested, that real money would be at unacceptable risk with these autotraders, so I’m not going to chase the disparity any further. You should do your own due diligence anyway.

Their published results are only from the inception of the script, with no backtested data. This omission is really unforgivable and gives insight into the integrity of the company. Rich Staiton, their autotrader programmer, is very defensive of his scripts with any criticism about their dubious performance. Combine this with their locked-down forum, their non-chat chat room, their non-live trades in the live room, and you can begin to paint an unflattering picture of Viper Trading Systems. All of this could be put to rest with forthright transparency, unless of course they have something to hide.

-Tom

Click link to access uploaded file:
Viper AT results.xls

Thanks for that candid synopsis, Tom.

Except for the auto-trader analysis, you have confirmed what so many have said before about Viper and its "I'll do anything to make a buck from aspiring traders" brainchild, Charles Boyle.

It won't be long before Viper Trading Systems has as many negative posts on this forum two other world class rippoffs, Tsunami Trading Educators and Trading Zoo (defunct).

Viper Trading Systems is the current frontrunner to win Phantasmagoria's Vendor Hall of Shame award for 2009.

Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.