eminiviper.com

I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:

http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2300&whichpage=30

We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.


cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...


jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.

It's entry #8 under the tread "Viper Indicator" on BMT I have been playing around with it for a week or so.

I'm not sure if this is still their plan, but in the webinar that I was in, they were trying to decide on the pricing of the new "viper 3", either $199 or $249. But, they did say that if you were a current subscriber to the regular viper or autotrader then it would only be $99.

Originally posted by bubbles

I'm not sure if this is still their plan, but in the webinar that I was in, they were trying to decide on the pricing of the new "viper 3", either $199 or $249. But, they did say that if you were a current subscriber to the regular viper or autotrader then it would only be $99.

I guess they are raising prices because their auto-trade busness is going to hell in a handbasket and they need to make up for lost revenue. (What about the lost revenue of the clients who traded those POS?).

Go to Big Mike's forum and check out what others say about Viper and thank God you're not a user (sucker) of the auto trade scripts.

Unfortunately, I was a subscriber of the autotrader.

I wonder if the viper team will still be able to show the Viper 3 on a chart from the day before and be able to show where to enter and exit a trade. That's one of their best skills, saying things like "you should have bought here, then exited here" while pointing at a previous day's chart.

I have read Big Mikes Trading forum, good information there also, very active today. Haven't posted there yet.

Originally posted by bubbles

Unfortunately, I was a subscriber of the autotrader.

I wonder if the viper team will still be able to show the Viper 3 on a chart from the day before and be able to show where to enter and exit a trade. That's one of their best skills, saying things like "you should have bought here, then exited here" while pointing at a previous day's chart.

How bad was your auto-trader experience?

That's all these yo-yos know how to do: mark up charts from the day before and tell you how many winners the indicator called.

This morning, they were calling trades that were in direct conflict with the auto-trade positions. They were fading the auto-trades. How's that for confidence in your product?

Too bad they don't know how to trade themselves. All three of them are burnt out losing traders who figured out it's easier to take other people's money for tricked up "education" than risk their own money.

Like tomgilb, my autotrader subscription was educational.

Looking back on the month or so I was actively trying to use an autotrader live, it was pretty disappointing. Looking back on the few months I was a subscriber it seems like a huge waste of time.

Before I subscribed I read all of the posts here and any other reviews I could find on the viper trading system and after listening to the webinars and live chat rooms I couldn't understand why there were so many negative posts by phantasmagoria and others. Now I understand and they are correct.

I should have realized that after the first two days diamond back went live and got stopped out both days and was told not to use it, that these autotraders hadn't been tested sufficiently. Then they re-released it and if I remember correctly, the targets were 6 and 7 and the stops were at 12, seems like a big risk for a small reward.

One thing that really annoyed me...I traded the russell live and would hit the max loss first thing in the morning, then I would go to the webinar that night only to see that the reloaded chart had a great day.

One thing that kind of confused me is that instead of them working on one autotrader and make it conservative and reliable, they would just toss more scripts at you and say use whatever matches your personal trading style. Maybe I'm in the minority, but my personal autotrader style is for it to make money, not lose money, and for $300/month($3600/year), don't make me think too much or make me make decisions and change the targets and stops.

I think Gary summed it up best by one comment in a chat session, he said to treat the autotraders as an investment, run them consistently to get the good days with the bad days. Personally, I research and study my investments, and there isn't any way to research the autotraders or the viper guys. Broker statements would go a long ways. And they should get rid of that cow bell because they don't call the trade entries, Gary just rings it after a breakout hits a pivot.

And don't get me started on the computer/datafeed/clearing house/bandwidth/clock issues..

I listened to the webinar last night. It's very scary to think they are releasing a handful of new scripts for forex pairs in a week and working on scripts for another half dozen futures markets. These scripts are not backtested with suffcient history to commercialize them. Rich's modus operandi is to let the users (paid subscribers) do the beta testing and if it works fine and if not, drop it.

I almost wet my pants from laughing when Rich said the systems usually have a great day after a bad losing one (or a good afternoon after a bad morning) and someone asked what about after a good day or a good morning? Do the systems then have a follow-on loser, to which Rich replied "that's an interesting question."

Of course, these new AT will cost more money and more than likely will not be consistently profitable. I've never heard of a developer who has a smorgasborg of AT as if your picking fruit in a supermarket.

The opinions of others are useful and sometimes interesting in evaluating services, but nothing speaks louder than hard, cold, indisputable facts supported with real numbers.

http://www.bigmiketrading.com/23993-post90.html

Conclusion: Do not spend $299 a month to enrich Viper's owners and $000s to enrich your broker.

Instead, keep the commission dollars in your pocket and donate the $299 to a Haitian relief effort.

You have made a mistake in calculating the gross profit of the Viper's Russell AT as Jane has stated.

Jane's analysis of the Russell from 9/09 to 12/09 was 368 points, but those are points, not ticks. Each point is worth 10 ticks or $100 a point,not $10 a point.

So thats 368 points at $100 a point, or $36,800 gross profit.

At 900 trades at $4.50 a trade that is $4,050 in commission for an overall net profit of $32,750

Not bad for a monthly subscription fee of $299 a month.

Not True:

This excerpt from Jane's superb analysis is all you need to know to stay away from Viper's Russell AT unless you enjoy losing money. Allow me to net it out for you.

From 9/09 thu 12/09, AT gained 368 points @$10/point = +$3,680.
900 contracts commission @$4.50 = -$4,050
Viper fee, $299/month x 4 = -$1,196

NET LOSS: $1,566.

The Truth:

The way I read Jane's superb analysis is that the Russell trades at $10 per tick, or $100 per point, and that would make a heck of a difference in a gain or a loss. Three hundred sixty eight points is $36,800 dollars and with a commission of $4050.00 is still over $10,000 per month and at $299 per month, that is one great deal.

The true analysis would be

From 9/09 thu 12/09, AT gained 368 points @$100/point = +$36,800.
900 contracts commission @$4.50 = -$4,050
Viper fee, $299/month x 3 = -$897.00 ( A quarter is 3 months not 4)

Net profit with these figures would be $31,853.00

Take $31,853 and divide by 3, (There are 3 months in a quarter), and then by 4.33 weeks in a month and that is $2452.11 per week. Take that a little further and divide by 32.5 hours per week in the market, and that is $75.44 per hour after all commissions and the fees charged by Viper.

A Happy Viper

Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.