OrderFlowEdge

Being around for a few years has afforded me the opportunity to make many great contacts/friends within and outside of the forum. This week I cannot believe how many positive comments I have had from people attending this vendors webinars. One person sent me a screen capture to show me that they were using volume profile areas, Cummulative delta and the $ticks. Sounds like an exceelent grounding to learn from and most have seen many of us " talk" about those things in the day trading threads. I just finished looking at their website and naturally it sounds amazing. They always do!

I have the utmost respect for the feedback I recieved from my online "friends" so this may be one to learn from if you need a formal structured environment. I have nothing to do with them and please do your own research. Naturally the forum would welcome any feedback or experience you have had with this vendor.

here is the website should you care to browse them:

http://orderflowedge.com/

I’ve finished watching the recorded videos on the following topics. I am not going to make this a long post but wanted to give a brief overview and some thoughts. These sessions are recorded live from about 3:30 – 5 PM E.S.T over the course of two weeks. I reviewed past ones that are archived but normally you attend these topics live so you are viewing and discussing the material using the current market environment.



Here are the main topics:

Session 1: Intro to OFE Zones
Session 2: Zones, Isolation Value, Unfinished business
Session 3: Order-flow dynamics, Smart money commitment
Session 4: Order-flow structure, Inventory Transitions, Stop Runs
Session 5: Four steps to identifying opportunity, NYSE Tick
Session 6: Wholesale/Retail mindset, Risk Management
Session 7: Trade Management, Agg factor, Trade Entry
Session 8: High Probability Trading, Winning Mindset.


There is no doubt that Thomas – the head instructor is very knowledgable about trading. Each module builds upon the previous one and there is review to help ingrain the core concepts. Each new concept discussed takes up about 30 – 45 minutes so the ideas are not complex or hard to follow. The rest of the time he is going back over the previous concepts learned and applying them to the current market environment along with the new material. I like this approach because you won’t be looking at old course material that applies to a market from a long time ago.

He articulates well and speaks clearly. During the live education you can ask questions and get them answered right away. You can also email them or ask questions in the live chat room so you have multiple avenues to help make sure you understand the material before the next training session. I also like when Thomas talks about having realistic expectations and goals. If you are looking for promises of untold wealth without hard work then OFE is not for you. They are upfront that trading is hard and takes discipline. This is not a red light/green light system and it is possible that no two traders will take the exact same trades. They may initiate trades in the same area ( the zones) but the training makes it clear that it is ultimately up to you to make it work for your account and risk tolerance.


Dalton says that all good swing trades start out as good day trades and I will take that a step further and say that all good day trades start out as good scalp trades. With that said they are mostly scalpers on their entries and exits but this doesn’t mean you cannot use the material to get into or out of longer term trades.


In the final installment I will spend more time discussing the live chat room and getting to some of the tougher questions people have asked. I don’t want to go into specifics on the topics listed above as that isn’t needed nor would it be right. As I said before there are no secrets so I was mostly looking at these videos from a presentation point of view. I also look at these videos with 14 years of ES trading experience so I have no way to know what a newbie would think of them. To me it was presented very clearly and I know a newbie would have options to get all their questions answered.. I am not concerned about this material being too difficult for a person to comprehend..

This isn’t an easy post to make to the forum as I have some conflicts going on with this review. The folks at OFE have been real nice to allow me to review their course but I also feel like I have an obligation to the forum to report things as I have seen. Please keep in mind that I have only been in the live chat room for 8 days so this is only a small sample size. All of these things I have discussed repeatedly with OFE and I hope they will come onto the forum to address things if they wish..


1)The first problem I have is it seems that Thomas begins each day already showing a positive balance on his DOM. Casey has confirmed for me that sometimes they are in SIM mode and sometimes real trading so I do not know which one is shown. These positive balances range in the $ 62 - $ 300 range and you do not see the trades that gives the DOM those totals. Those are there when the Live session begins each day and while he tells you about the trades that create those positive balances you do not see him take those trades. Members also talk about these premarket trades so I guess my hang up is that I wish he would start the live screen earlier to watch these trades being made.

2) The biggest trades have come so far in the premarket when you cannot see his charts. I do not like that. No other forum member seems to be bothered by this.

3) They go for small winners usually in the 3 – 5 tic range but they have had two big losing days and I have seen them trading in front of reports and have big draw downs. Last Monday he started with a Plus $200 account balance or more ( This balance was created premarket and I didn’t see it happen)and when the 10 a.m report hit the account was minus $400 in a matter of minutes. That is a $ 600 swing in equity. I don’t think many traders can trade like that and I take issue with that. In all fairness nobody suggests you trade like Thomas in the room and they are honest in that a person needs to find what works for them.

They have loyal members and I have seen comments like “This is only the third time I have seen Thomas in the red in 4 months “. These are unsolicited comments made in the room so this implies he usually trades better than I observed. There are also many who have said they improved their results and rave about how OFE has changed their life. It would not be fair to judge OFE by my 8 day visit alone.

4) I cannot confirm net positive trades from the live session they show from the 9:30 session forward. The Dom amount is misleading because of the premarket balance. They will not share trading statements. Most vendors do not share statements so a potential member needs to do their own due diligence. This is not unique to OFE.

Upon reading the above you may think I am slamming OFE but this is simply a report on how Thomas traded the method while I sat in the room. It’s only 8 days ! I have been told that the losing days are rare and not normal for him.

If I had to pick out a weakness in the training it would be on the actual entries and exits. The methodology regarding the zones, ticks, cumulative delta etc is rock solid. What is missing for me is that I think they need to look at some form of footprint or bid/ ask data beyond cumulative delta for entries and exits once they enter a zone. This would prevent those big draw downs. It would be a nice addition to the training and it would allow a lower capitalized trader more opportunity without worrying about the big losses. I mention this because I use to average in and it is a difficult game for most. I think it is import to learn to take many small losses quickly so you can move on to the better trades..

Which gets to my key point:

Because Thomas had bad days and doesn’t trade like I would does not make the OFE methodology bad in any way. They do not hide behind the losses. Good chance you will not trade like him or anybody anyway. It will be up to you to find an entry and exit method that you are comfortable with. I have said that from the beginning.

I told Casey – the other owner of OFE that I would like to see the DOM disappear from the charts that Thomas shows. Do I need to know he had a good or bad day or is it more important that I can see the concepts ? Do I need to be thrilled for him if he has a big winner and I don’t ? Do I need to be glad if I sidestep a big draw down and he doesn’t ? I think the DOM does more harm than good in that room . It can create bad energy sometimes.

The bottom line on this or any room is you will need to work on yourself. I think the OFE training can get you there as the concepts are very important to learn. Some can get them from the internet for free over time, some need structure and to have a success “coach”. There is no right or wrong answer only the one that helps you achieve your goals. I can vouch for the concepts being used but I can’t confirm trades. That may be a hang up for some and I wanted to keep this as real as I can without feeling bad about it. I hope this helps.

Bruce

One thing I'd like to add Depth of Market windows in Simulation Mode. From what I've been told, limit orders tend to be filled faster in Sim Mode than with real time trading. I've experienced this in a trade room I'm previewing. The main trader placed a limit order 10 seconds after I put in my order. He got filled. I didn't. As far as I can tell, they is no lag between what they're doing and what I see.

Nevertheless, the trading methodology is impressive. I'm pretty sure they'll give anyone a free look.

Here's a question I always ask these educators:

"We all know that 95% of new traders lose money. How much have you improved upon those numbers?"

They ALL say something like "quite a bit" but never have any statistics to support their claim. It would be interesting to one day find one that could actually say "Our records show that only 85% of our new traders lose money" or something to that affect.

Hey Everyone,

Casey here with OFE..Just wanted to reply to Bruce's review and the other comments.

Bruce, I appreciate you taking the time to review OFE, and I appreciate your comments. Regarding any pre-market trades, Thomas makes it a point to mention these in the members chat room, which you've seen. And you've also seen members discussing the opportunities as well.

In a perfect world, it would be great if Thomas could strap a camera to his back so we could watch him at all hours...Just not realistic. Also, as we preach day in and day out, the idea is for you to become an independent trader and read order flow the way we do...identify opportunity the way Thomas teaches in the workshop, etc. Successful OFE traders are not worried about what Thomas is doing...They understand the method and they trade according to their goals.

We do our best and go way above and beyond most to make ourselves accessible. Chat room, Trade room, Afternoon workshops, Sunday night sessions, Evening sessions during the week, etc.

We state day in and day out this is not a blackbox system, there is discretion to our method. If you're looking for an automated system...OFE is not the right fit for you. There are plenty of people out there willing to sell everyone a dream, some amazing automated system, and tell people exactly what they want to hear. I'm not directing these comments at anyone in particular, just speaking candidly here.

Do I know if what we offer...our market pepsective, our knowledge, is what you're looking for...No! I have no way of knowing that. But this i do know for sure...we deliver what we promise. If you’re looking to learn about order flow and supply/demand and how you can use it to your advantage you will be pleased...if youre looking for a red light green light super secret 100% perfect indicator, good luck on your journey.

Most who join OFE, by far the majority, wish they did it earlier...And they wish they never spent a penny or a minute of their time on programs and indicators that have nothing to do with how supply and demand moves the markets.

Bruce you mentioned a comment from an OFE member who has only seen Thomas in the red a couple times in 4 months and that your comments are only based on a few days in the room, which you've made very clear to everyone, and I appreciate that. This is trading reality, losing days and losing trades are going to happen. If as a trader, you cannot deal with losing trades or losing days, you're going to find it very tough to get to a place of consistency.

If we didn't 100% believe in our method we would have never agreed for someone to come in and do a review. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people 'selling' something in this industry would never opt to do something like that...because they cannot stand behind their stuff.

This brings me to your comment myptofvu. Do I know that every person that signs up to OFE is successful? Absolutely not. All I can do is share the feedback that we receive, and we encourage anyone who may be struggling to speak up, so we can do our best to help. Again, we have put as many resources in place that we possibly can to make ourselves accessible and give people the best chance at success. I know we have several success stories, and those who claim their lives have changed. Do I look at their trading accounts or statements, no. That's not my business...As my accounts are nobody else's business. We also have people sign up, and we never see or hear from them. They never come into the room, never attend a workshop session. It's not all that common, but it happens. I've pondered why this was, and I've come to a conclusion. Once someone signs up, then that's when the work begins. Thats the hard part, and that's when they back away.

It's easy to come into a room, hear Thomas explain our method, watch him trade, etc. But, once you join, now you have to apply yourself. People who spend money and never take action will always exist, and they will always chase the dream somewhere else. No different then signing up at the gym. It was easy thinking about how you want to get into shape, it was easy walking into the gym, it was easy signing up and getting a membership. But after all that settles down, now the work begins. No different here.

Two things you will always hear us say. 1) If your expecting someone else to do the work for you..you will fail...And 2) If you're expecting instant results through trading, you won't get them..

Speaking to #2, Here's a great example of an OFE member who was initially in a hurry for big results and was upset he was not getting them. He then took a step back, learned the method, and realized
how effective the OFE zones and dashboard are to his trading.

Pretty easy read, that was posted on the Sierra Chart forum awhile back: http://www.sierrachart.com/supportboard/showthread.php?t=34621&highlight=orderflowedge

Anyhow, In the end its pretty simple...if you come to our free open room and you like what you see, then we are very confident you will pleased if you join...If you dont like what you see, if were
not the right fit, then we wish you the best in your journey.

Thanks,

-Casey

Thanks Casey for the free trial this a.m. from 9:15 to 11:00 ..

I signed up with OrderFlowEdge in March 2015 (that's Thomas DeLello [email protected] and Casey Phelan [email protected]) as their method looked solid from the videos. In the end I decided it's not for me as I primarily trade forex and their supply/demand zones are completely useless for anything other than index futures. Even for index futures, I just wasn't impressed at all. The main method seems to be taking lots of counter-trend trades with the ever moving stop loss: "as long as the current bar is within the trade tunnel zone (2 rising lines in the uptrend), we are are still ok; once we get a complete bar outside of the tunnel, get out of the trade'. The problem is you can be within this trade tunnel for a long time, like 5+ ES points. Good luck with this risk management.

The room feels pretty stale, maybe 20-30 members on a good day. This is despite regular enrolment drives and deep discounts. Feels like there are some shills in there too, e.g. a guy who claims to have 42 winning ES trades in a row. Give me a break...

Anyhow, after 2 months of testing it and concluding that it was a waste of money , I decided to stop my subscription (they are quarterly, so I gave advance note to Thomas by email, explaining my reasons and got his reply with the explanation how I was perhaps not applying 'da method' correctly, yada-yada, but 'good luck to you on your journey'). Then in a month I get a message from Paypal that they charged me for another quarter. I am thinking 'ok, honest mistake' and shoot email to Thomas and Casey. Silence. A few days later another email. More silence. I am being patient here, so I wait a few more days and send another email. Thomas finally responds with 'I'll get back from my trip in a week and will look into it'. So, 2 guys who are running the trading room every day, all of a sudden pretend to be missing for over a week and just stonewall me.

So I talked to my bank and initiated a claim against OFE. Apparently OFE received the claim from Visa/Paypal and responded that 'they had no idea what I was talking about, that as far as they know I am an active subscriber and they haven't received any cancellation notice'. They also came back with that in a sneaking way, right in August, when everyone is on vacation and the time to respond that Visa gives you is like a week, and if you don't respond with corroborating evidence, you lose the claim. I was really lucky that I just happened to be talking to my bank about something else and they notified me of the OFE claims. I sent my OFE email conversation to Visa and the case was shortly resolved in my favor. Overall, I could clearly see these guys (OFE) knew what they were doing and the timing and the manner indicated it wasn't the first time for them.

If you are thinking of signing up with OFE, reflect on my experience with them. If they are this desperate about 600 USD that they would lie and cheat and drag this on for months, how good their method really is?