OrderFlowEdge

Being around for a few years has afforded me the opportunity to make many great contacts/friends within and outside of the forum. This week I cannot believe how many positive comments I have had from people attending this vendors webinars. One person sent me a screen capture to show me that they were using volume profile areas, Cummulative delta and the $ticks. Sounds like an exceelent grounding to learn from and most have seen many of us " talk" about those things in the day trading threads. I just finished looking at their website and naturally it sounds amazing. They always do!

I have the utmost respect for the feedback I recieved from my online "friends" so this may be one to learn from if you need a formal structured environment. I have nothing to do with them and please do your own research. Naturally the forum would welcome any feedback or experience you have had with this vendor.

here is the website should you care to browse them:

http://orderflowedge.com/

I know nothing about this specific service beyond just looking over their web-site.

I did want to make an observation, as a multi-year student/researcher/system developer in the field of tape reading / order flow analysis, which this service encompasses. Through various sources I am aware of most of the webinar's that occur each day, and the proliferation of these "order flow" trading services has exploded over the past year. These vendors latch onto the latest fad (in this case "order flow") and drain all the training $$$ they can out of it. The problem of course is, as this technology becomes dispersed throughout the trading community, its value is affected and could potentially be fully diminished over time. This is a direct concern to me, having devoted several years of my time developing algorithms based on this information. The one bright spot is 'traders' paying the $2495 up front startup cost plus the typical multi-thousand $$$ indicator software licensing fees still do not know how to trade profitably with or without this technology.

I am not casting any aspersions at this vendor in particular, I would hope the vendor is of the utmost reputation in the trading education industry, but at the same time I note there are easily 20 other vendors out there right now marketing the exact same information. I would also note, everything they are teaching for $10K+ is already found (for free) in the archives of the MyPivot's forum.

Hello Pt emin,

I need to start this post by stating I am affiliated with orderflowedge.com. You can find my information on the "who we are" page of the website.

Also, I am not sure exactly how Bruce heard about us, and we really appreciate him making a post about us on this forum. But, I want to be upfront that we have not solicited anyone.

I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of what your saying. Something I've realized in the trading industry is a big bandwagon and the "marketers" in the industry just simply feed off of consumers emotions and desires to make money. I am convinced that the vast majority of so-called "gurus" and "experts" out there do not actually trade. It always amazes me how these experts come out with a brand new amazing method/system/algorithm every 3 months when they were just pushing the biggest and best thing last week.

We are real traders first and foremost, and we trade live in front of people every single day. Whether it's with our members or our open room for those that are interested in joining us.

But I must also point the finger at the consumer here as well. Trading is hard! Bottom line. I will always make that statement. If it were easy, everyone would be making money. Unfortunately, we all know the statistics. People are also looking for shortcuts which leads them to buying into the marketing scams out there. Turn $1 into $1 million in 30 days while your sleeping, blah blah blah.

Something we are very upfront about is you will need to be committed. You will need to apply yourself, and you will need to be focused. You will also need to be disciplined. If those things scare you, this is not for you. We offer a very comprehensive education. We are lifting the hood and showing you how the market is truly structured and how to trade with a consistent edge.

What we teach, our edge, our method, works. We have a very long list of members that can attest to that. But again, just as much of the success comes down to the person him/herself.

Just thought I would share my 2 cents.

Thanks!

Hi Casey, thanks for taking time share your thoughts and provide us with more information about OFE. I agree with your comments. I would add "patience" to your list of essential trader attributes.

I wanted everyone to know that I have contacted Casey from Orderflowedge and we are putting a plan together for a formal review of their training program. If anyone has any concerns, questions or objections about this review then please let me know so I can address them.

Bruce

Since I started this thread I have had about 17 folks contact me regarding this course. Three of these actually took the training and I have been compiling the pro's and cons from each person so I can better address the issues . I'm also keeping track of key issues and questions like " Do they actually trade ?, pricing, guarantees, support, type of delivery ( video, hard copies, webinars) etc, etc..."

What always fascinates me about forum life is the reasons "why" some decide to contact people in private and some post directly. In this case there has been nobody that posted to the forum which is surprising to me but I respect everyones style of response.

I'm expecting a non-disclosure agreement from Casey soon and then I will begin to review the course. All I really know about them is that they seem like good guys and they incorporate some of the key ideas I use in my own trading ( based on me sitting in on 2 -3 freebie sessions). I appreciate them having enough guts to have a review in a public place and hopefully we can get some good ONLINE feedback once I post my own thoughts.

Just wanted to give a quick update.

Bruce

I'd like to add to and expand on what Bruce said about nobody posting to the forum on this topic: This is your opportunity to find out about a system that might have some components that will take you from a losing trading to a winning trader or if you're already profitable it could make you more profitable. If you were evaluating a new system what questions would you ask?

Bruce here are some of mine.

• How did they test (validate) their system?
• Are they profitable in their own right as traders?
• Do they trade their own money or sim trade?
• What are the shortest and longest times their trades are open for?
• What time frames do they use to generate signals/triggers to trade? (if applicable)
• Can their strategies be traded with 1 contract?
• Do their strategies require complicated money management which includes adding and removing contracts at different stages?
• Is the strategy rule based or discretionary?
• What would a new trader with a $10,000 account expect to achieve over a 1 year period if they started with this course today?
• Why are they teaching/coaching instead of trading?
• What guarantees are offered and how would a potential customer know that those guarantees would be honored?
• How many years of live trading does the most inexperienced coach have? And the most experienced coach?
• What symbols do their strategies work for?
• Are any symbols more profitable than others?
• How did their system perform in recent bear, bull, and sideways markets?
• What evidence is there of the performance claims?

I'm sure there are more questions other readers have. Add them here...

Bruce - any updates on this vendor?

I've sat in on the official chat room the past three days and am getting set up with my course access. I'm planning to type up a few thoughts as I go through the process later today or tomorrow.

Originally posted by GTraderP

Bruce - any updates on this vendor?

I'm going to start my review of the chat room that OFE offers first. Due to illness I really haven't had the chance to go through the online training yet so this review will be done in stages. I want to remind everyone that I do not write well so please concentrate on the content and not the way this is written.

Many of the questions that have been asked here and via my private email will hopefully be answered over the next few days. So I'll start with a few comments.

OFE teaches a discretionary method of trading which basically involves looking at key price zones and some market internals to decide if a trade is worth taking. With that said I am not sure how they could logically offer a guarantee when it is up to the end user to make the trade or not. How could they be accountable for decisions made by others? They do offer people to sit in on the Sunday night meeting and the Monday chat room to see if the methodology might be something they could use to trade. If you don't like what you see then you get a refund. Seems simple to me.

One question is "why teach if you can trade ?". This is actually a question I was hung up on in my early trading years too. I spoke with Casey, one of the owners of the site this past summer and we both seem to agree that trading can be inconsistent at times. As traders we not only deal with our own good and bad days but also the changes in volatility of the markets we trade. So ideally we should have something to smooth out our OVERALL equity curve that we rely on. Most don't know this about me but I invest in real estate and have since I was a young buck in my early twenties. Now as a married guy with three kids I always think about what would happen to my family if something happened to me ?. Suppose I couldn't trade ? Well, I have additional streams of income to help out. The point is that I am satisifed that these folks are using their training business as a means to have multiple streams of outside of their trading. There is also the issue of loneliness and being in a chat room or getting involved with something that includes people is a needed balance form the overall trading routine. Some get that need filled by real estate, charity work,education, websites or many other things.


So far I have had nothing but positive experiences with the communication from the OFE trainers. When you sign up you get a welcoming email with screen shots and video instructions of the steps to get your account going and exactly where you need to navigate from their home page in order to access the chat room and training material. I mention this because it's seems that they are very thorough not only from the administrative side of things but also the actual training. The people in the chat room are very cordial to each other and helpful. You can post charts and type in questions which are always answered in a prompt and courteous manner. You will not find a bunch of ego's out of control in this chat room. They are a very humble group. The chats and session is also archived so if you miss a day of trading and want to review what was said in the room you can read what was typed in and also hear what the moderators have
talked about. Thomas - the head trader makes commentary and shows you his charts and his DOM. This commentary and the live charts are also archived so you can do replays of the session at a later date and see the charts unfold. He has been trading since 1996.

Without having specific knowledge of the methodology ( because I haven't reviewed all the material yet) at this time I cannot confirm trades or changes in his DOM. I do not really know how to tell if it is simulated or not. Once I understand EXACTLY what they look at I will be able to confirm if a trade at least had the potential to be profitable. I'm not sure if it will matter to me if the trade is actual or simulated as long as the setup is clear to see. Nobody is
going to guarantee that you will pull the trigger on a trade.

It is my understanding there are three main people that work at OFE and I would find it hard to think that someone could sit in a chatroom all day and moderate the ES market without actually trading. I just do not think that there can be that much money in training or education to justify the time spent by the moderators day after day. One thing for sure is that these folks work hard in getting people set up with the Ninja or Sierra charts platform, handling questions and holding after hours meetings and additional training for members. I will go into more detail in another message.

I know many struggle with trading. It is a hard business and ultimately a person needs to decide if they are committed to making it work for them. There are many issues to consider and I won't list them here. OFE has never portrayed that trading would be easy and a get rich quick endever. You need to have that burning desire and to be driven to make it work. No training program will give that to you but it can help to have a strong support team behind you. A place
to go to ask questions and be with like minded individuals.

Years ago I was in some paltalk rooms and you had those who would "post and boast", essentially bragging about how great they are as traders. You will not find that in the OFE room nor will you find people being rude or rambling on about politics or religion. The people that are in the room seem to be serious about trading and becoming better traders. I am told that there are 50 - 75 people who visit the room on a regular basis but only a handful will be
active posters and many are lurkers like me and will chime in when they need questions answered.

There are no secrets to trading and if there are, they are not out there in the forums and being taught. This by no means belittles the value of structured education or OFE. Perhaps there are some that need help just putting the pieces together. This my sound like an off beat analogy but my kids have these LEGO kits where you can make cars, rockets and all sorts of cool stuff. My one son is into Star Wars and has these huge starships that he builds....thousands of
pieces that he puts together with a detailed instruction book. There may be some that could look at all these pieces and put this model together without the directions. I wouldn't be able to do it and my son can't either. He goes page by page , step by step through the instructions to come up with a finished product he is proud of. Sometimes he even needs additional help from his parents.

So I agree with PT-emini in his post above that the pieces of the trading puzzle are out there on forums etc...the real question one needs to ask is " are you happy with your results so far and are you happy with the speed of your progress ? "

I like what I see so far from OFE and in the next few days I will have more time to sit through the online training. I may be mistaken but I think there are about 10 - 12 hours of video to review. That's a lot for me ! I know the internals they use make sense because I use some of the same. The real key will be the context in which they are applied. So in the next few days I will ramble so more about the actual training modules they offer and how they are applied to the markets.

Thanks for taking the time to write this Bruce.

I signed up with OrderFlowEdge in March 2015 (that's Thomas DeLello [email protected] and Casey Phelan [email protected]) as their method looked solid from the videos. In the end I decided it's not for me as I primarily trade forex and their supply/demand zones are completely useless for anything other than index futures. Even for index futures, I just wasn't impressed at all. The main method seems to be taking lots of counter-trend trades with the ever moving stop loss: "as long as the current bar is within the trade tunnel zone (2 rising lines in the uptrend), we are are still ok; once we get a complete bar outside of the tunnel, get out of the trade'. The problem is you can be within this trade tunnel for a long time, like 5+ ES points. Good luck with this risk management.

The room feels pretty stale, maybe 20-30 members on a good day. This is despite regular enrolment drives and deep discounts. Feels like there are some shills in there too, e.g. a guy who claims to have 42 winning ES trades in a row. Give me a break...

Anyhow, after 2 months of testing it and concluding that it was a waste of money , I decided to stop my subscription (they are quarterly, so I gave advance note to Thomas by email, explaining my reasons and got his reply with the explanation how I was perhaps not applying 'da method' correctly, yada-yada, but 'good luck to you on your journey'). Then in a month I get a message from Paypal that they charged me for another quarter. I am thinking 'ok, honest mistake' and shoot email to Thomas and Casey. Silence. A few days later another email. More silence. I am being patient here, so I wait a few more days and send another email. Thomas finally responds with 'I'll get back from my trip in a week and will look into it'. So, 2 guys who are running the trading room every day, all of a sudden pretend to be missing for over a week and just stonewall me.

So I talked to my bank and initiated a claim against OFE. Apparently OFE received the claim from Visa/Paypal and responded that 'they had no idea what I was talking about, that as far as they know I am an active subscriber and they haven't received any cancellation notice'. They also came back with that in a sneaking way, right in August, when everyone is on vacation and the time to respond that Visa gives you is like a week, and if you don't respond with corroborating evidence, you lose the claim. I was really lucky that I just happened to be talking to my bank about something else and they notified me of the OFE claims. I sent my OFE email conversation to Visa and the case was shortly resolved in my favor. Overall, I could clearly see these guys (OFE) knew what they were doing and the timing and the manner indicated it wasn't the first time for them.

If you are thinking of signing up with OFE, reflect on my experience with them. If they are this desperate about 600 USD that they would lie and cheat and drag this on for months, how good their method really is?