NinjaTrader's refusal to fix Major Flaw leads to banning

Over the weekend, two threads I started regarding a major flaw in NT were removed from another Forum and I have been banned from there. It's no wonder most traders fail when they live in a delusional world of half truths and "out 'n out" misinformation.

One of the major reasons traders use a trading platform like NT is it's ability to place bracket orders and to automate multi-step strategies. It is when using these strategies, the flaw comes into play.

Using the ES, which has a tick value of $12.50; a 20 tick stop equals $250. The problem comes into play on profit targets. These are sent out as Stop Limit orders. Because, the Stop side of the order is a mandatory 20 ticks away from the Limit side of the order....when the markets hits the Limit price, the 20 tick offset has the effect of turning the Limit order into a market order. This causes the Limit order to be filled at the best price available (within those 20 ticks).

This can cause a loss of a tick or two on a regular basis....Or, an extra $12.50-25.00 per contract traded. This can add substantially to the effective cost of using NT.

To be fair, you can change this offset after the order is submitted, but this is cumbersome and easy to forget to do in the "heat of trading." Remember, the reason you are paying NT is to automate these functions and make trading less stressful and reduce the steps of placing multiple orders.

You can take the position that slippage is inevitable. And, this is exactly the justification NT states...however, I know from my experience-and the way I trade- the market and will come back and fill me at my Limit price, thus, achieving my full profit target.

There are traders that are happy to get filled at the "best price" but there others that trade with a greater precision and want the option to determine their own trading fate.

Hi BeyondMP,

Thank-you very much for giving the example. It helps me understand better. I can see how this is a problem and a big flaw with NinjaTrader paid version (NT).

To recap what you said in point form:
1. The central idea of NT is to have NT implement an automated strategy.
2. NT places all stop orders as limit orders.
3. NT places all stop orders limits at a forced $250
4. Often this $250 limit on the stop is not what you want for your strategy and causes the stop to be hit. If you were able to choose you would place the stop further away for your strategy. This would result in your stop not being hit and your strategy being more successful.
5. Though there is no financial reason for Ninja, the company, to work against the interest of its paying subscribers, despite repeated requests for a change in this arbitrary and poorly thought-out artificial limit, Ninja refuses to make an easy adjustment to its program.

Ninja advertises itself as being very flexible and customizable program. However, it is only customizable on silly things like colors and width of a line.

I have asked what I feel are reasonable requests of Ninja and they have shown themselves to be inflexible and without understanding of traders needs. On the surface they are polite and accommodating yet nothing changes. As their financial survival depends upon people converting to paid version this attitude seems like a poorly thought out business strategy.

On the basis of their inflexibility to my requests I made the decision not to opt for the paid version.

I imagine there are enough foolish traders out there to keep them in business that they are inflexible to reasonable requests.

Thanks again BeyondMP for your help.

JCX you are in violation of posting guidelines
1, 4 and 5. The moderators should be taking action.

HI Blue I am sorry you feel that way. But let's just look at this for a moment.

Here are the accusations you posted: I am in violation of 1, 4, and 5 of posting guidelines.

1. No posting off-topic to a thread's initial topic/question. This is called Thread-Jacking. If you do so, you run the risk of your posts being deleted. If you have something off-topic that you want to say then start a new topic and link to it from the original topic.

I did not hijack any thread nor go off topic. I addressed the specific areas of the original post with great detail.

4. If you have nothing nice, positive or helpful to say then just don't post. The golden rule governs here. How would you feel if you were the author and received a reply post like that? Remember there is no one forcing you to reply to everything (other than your own ego). If you don't like the thread - move along.

I believe what I responded with was both helpful and positive. Apparently others thought so too as my posts were voted UP. I may not agree with something, but that does not mean it is not positive.

5. "Hot" discussions, heated or personal replies are best done via Personal Message. Click on the member's name or avatar and if the member is allowing PM's there will be a link there to send the member a PM.

There is nothing heated about my replies nor discusssion of the topic.

You see Blue I have not violated anything. However it is possible that your false accusations against my posts and requests that the moderators take action could be construed as a personal attack and in fact the possibility exists that you are in violation. I will let the moderators hash that one out as I welcome your posts and thoughts.

I will ask a few simple questions though to BeyondMP, Blue, and any other forum members.

1) Have you ever used the paid version of Ninja?
2) If you have used the paid version, did you personally experience losses due to a so called flaw in Ninja? Please give detailed examples of the trades and the resulting losses occuring from said flaw.
3) Do you trade for a living with trading providing your sole income?
4) How long have you been trading?

I think before anyone posts about such things as flaws, losses, and such they should at least have experieced those things personally. Otherwise post that this is not their personal experience, just their opinion. I think that would be helpful.

I will answer the above questions myself.

1) I have the paid version of Ninja and have for over 4 years.
2) I have never experienced said flaw nor resultant losses on any single trade over this 4+ year period due to said flaw.
3) I am a full time S&P trader and my sole income is derived from my trading decisions including my decisions of what software to use.
4) I have been trading for over 13 years and only trade the S&P, starting at $500 per point, then $250 per point, and now trade the eminis exclusively.

Monkey Meat in a post said "I think the onus should be on the vendor". (Sorry if that quote is not exact MM)

I think the onus should be on anyone who posts. It goes to credibility. If someone posts who is losing consistently, is struggling to trade, or is only part time, that has a lot less weight then someone who trades for a living and has been in the trenches and speaks from direct experience.

My first statement when I replied to this post was, "I don't post very often". Now perhaps I realize that my only folly was to post at all.

JCX

JCX: "Monkey Meat in a post said "I think the onus should be on the vendor". (Sorry if that quote is not exact MM)

I think the onus should be on anyone who posts. It goes to credibility. If someone posts who is losing consistently, is struggling to trade, or is only part time, that has a lot less weight then someone who trades for a living and has been in the trenches and speaks from direct experience.
------------------------------------------------
Actually, for the record, that comment is taken a bit out of context. Any "vendor" selling/advertising/promoting etc. their product(s) or service(s) of trading education, trade methodology, systems, chatroom calls etc. for a fee to traders ... these "vendors" have the onus to substantiate any claims made about the efficacy of their wares as they are asking for money. As with any product or service from small to large, buyers will (and should) vet the seller and his product or service and require solid answers to often tough questions.

It is the buyer who is taking on the risk ... the risk of wasting money on the purchase price, and within the trading environment, risk of losing further monies on trades etc. from a poor or misrepresented product. Inside an industry rife with exploitation of the consumer, potential buyers will and should require proof of claims ... and extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

And now we resume our regularly scheduled programming ...

Thank you Monkey Meat. I was not sure where that post was or I would have quoted it entirely.

Your point is well stated and I only take it one step further and say that in my opinion "any" claim made should be substantiated and the onus lies on vendors and posters alike. I don't believe anyone should be exempt from substantiating claims made.


Thanks again,

JCX

Well , all I can say is what some people might consider a major flaw in Ninjatrader means totally nothing to others. I mainly daytrade TF with Ninja and I never use stop limit orders,a stoploss is usually there to make sure you will be filled, so mines become market orders once they are reached.

Of course anyone that decides to make strategy out of the ordinary can be exposed to different results, I'm not saying this is ok but I feel that if this software doesn't suits your needs you should move on with another one that will do exactly what you are looking for.

BTW I have nothing to gain from this post, I am just stating that it's ok to vent sometimes but I don't think that a thread with such a title was required. Anyway time for me to go back to daytrading busines as I don't have anything else to say beside Good luck in your quest for a new software.

Originally posted by JCX
[br

I will ask a few simple questions though to BeyondMP, Blue, and any other forum members.

1) Have you ever used the paid version of Ninja?
2) If you have used the paid version, did you personally experience losses due to a so called flaw in Ninja? Please give detailed examples of the trades and the resulting losses occurring from said flaw.
3) Do you trade for a living with trading providing your sole income?
4) How long have you been trading?

1. I am a paid user of NT.
2. I have personally experienced losses due to the flaw.
(Since NT readily admits to Stop Limit orders functioning as I describe and the loss of ticks that can occur, I see little reason to give detailed examples....If NT admits it occurs, I would presume that is the best proof available.)
3. Yes.
4. Trading for 35 years. As sole income...just over 10 years.

I see little value in these questions, as anyone would be able to perform their own due diligence and verify what I have said as true.