NinjaTrader's refusal to fix Major Flaw leads to banning

Over the weekend, two threads I started regarding a major flaw in NT were removed from another Forum and I have been banned from there. It's no wonder most traders fail when they live in a delusional world of half truths and "out 'n out" misinformation.

What's the flaw you found? Thanks.

This major flaw imposes a mandatory 20 tick offset for all Stop Limit orders submitted thru an ATM. Consequently, if your profit target is less than 20 ticks away from entry, it is possible for a winner to turn into a loser in highly volatile and thinly traded market.

This flaw has the effect of turning those Stop Limit orders into market orders. In normal trading this can cause the trader to lose a tick or two on a very regular basis. This creates a "hidden" cost for using NT that can be many times the monthly fees.

I'm glad this forum is here to bring this to peoples attention. I was thinking of downloading Nija to my laptop for summer....should I pass?

I don't post here very often but I saw this post and thought it worth addressing.

I have been using NinjaTrader for over 4 years now and have never had a single problem. I click my mouse and I am in and I click my mouse and I am out. I have been trading for a living for 13 years now and of all the platforms I have used this is certainly one of the most user friendly.

It was posted that the major flaw causes you hidden costs that can add up to many times the monthly fee. That's an interesting statement. Today I went long 1192.25 and exited at 1194.75. Those were my limits and those were my entry and exit. Where is the hidden cost? Where is my slippage?

If my stop gets slipped a tick or two now and then....I could care less. The idea of the stop loss is to...."Stop Loss" not get my exact price. If I am wrong I want out NOW and I will pay the extra $12.50 per contract to do just that if need be.

It was posted:

"it is possible for a winner to turn into a loser in highly volatile and thinly traded market."

Well of course. Who wants to trade a market like that? I don't use stop limit orders. I don't know why anyone would.

True story. A trader I know had a "stop limit" to buy the ES at let's say 1145 (don't remember the actual price) just before a news report. The report came out, market traded through his stop limit to go long and he had his limit order to sell with 4 points profit....or so he thought. You see, his "stop limit" never filled him long because it was a limit and not just a stop which becomes a market order. He was filled SHORT at what he had intended as his exit and when he realized what happened, he was down 5 points per contract as the market kept going.

Is this really a Ninja Flaw? Is using a stop limit and their using an offset a flaw? I don't know. But to say it's no wonder traders lose is in my opinion silly. Traders lose because they don't know what they are doing for entry, exit, or what kind of orders should be used and when.

I have done nothing but make money using Ninja Trader. And as far as monthly fees go for Ninja. Just pay the $995 and get the lifetime license. No more monthly fees. Data, Charts, Platform, everything you need for life. If you know of a better deal....let me know :)

And Bruce, you would be remiss in not checking it out. Heres' the reason why I switched to Ninja. I had eSignal and I had TT's platform which costs a nice monthly fee of $600. Now that's not the reason I switched. The problem was I was paying for the same data twice. I had my charts and had my platform to execute. It makes no sense at all to watch one data feed and execute off of another does it? Why not execute your trades off of the same data feed that your charts come from? That's the beauty of Ninja Trader. Your charts and your platform are driven from the same data feed.

Every platform out there has some quirks or "flaws" if you wish. It's up to the trader to be informed enough as to how to best use each platform and which orders serve them best.

Bottom line, if you're making money now, you will make money with Ninja Trader. If you're losing money now, you will lose money with Ninja Trader.

As the saying goes "A poor workman always blames his tools"!
(Not directed at anyone, just food for thought)

JCX

Hi Bruce,

I use the free Ninja. With it you can have the charts etc, but you must pay Ninja to be able to trade directly from Ninja (their paid version -it still routes the orders to your broker.)

My data feed comes from IB, my broker. (Ninja doesn't sell a datafeed and isn't a broker). With IB I pay for the data feed unless I generate $30 in commissions which I usually do (2.40 each side so $4.80 round trip for ES).

So I have Ninja running and it draws my charts. I have IB running and enter my orders there. (Also on IB I still have the RTH daily chart and an RTH hourly as Ninja doesn't access IB native RTH datafeed but rather the full 24 hrs. -basically I watch Ninja and set alerts and trade directly in IB.)

I place my trades at IB.
I also place the same trade on Ninja "sim mode". Ninja seems to execute at the same place IB does. (But of course I can't speak for the direct trade Ninja.)

(I didn't quite follow all of beyondMP's explanation or JCX counterpoints.)


Bruce you can try Ninja's free version and get up to speed on it before buying. If I lived in the USA I would like to try TradeStation which seems robust and is free if your commissions are $50/month.

JCX
"True story. A trader I know had a "stop limit" to buy the ES at let's say 1145 (don't remember the actual price) just before a news report. The report came out, market traded through his stop limit to go long and he had his limit order to sell with 4 points profit....or so he thought. You see, his "stop limit" never filled him long because it was a limit and not just a stop which becomes a market order. He was filled SHORT at what he had intended as his exit and when he realized what happened, he was down 5 points per contract as the market kept going."

For a setup like this on IB my orders would be:
Buy-stop 1145 limit 1145.50
(attached order: Sell-limit 1149.50)

In the case mentioned the Sell-limit would not be filled as the buy-stop was not.


{I think this is a highly questionable strategy though and the trader deserved his lumps - however none of this is Ninja related as far as I can see.)

Hi Blue,

The story I mentioned was in regards to what orders to use and when. This sort of strategy is used quite often by traders who will bracket the market with a buy stop and a sell stop so no matter which way it goes they are "stopped in" to the market and then exit hopefully with a profit.

The problem arises when you "stop in the market" with a "stop limit" which says I want to get long for example with a buy stop limit and I want to stop in long "at my designated price". The market can trade right through that price and never fill you. If you just use a stop market, then you will be filled at market and may or may not be happy with your fill.

You are right, it has nothing to do with Ninja. That was exactly my point. If you have slippage, it's part of the game based on what types of orders you place and when, and not knowing how to use them properly can be costly.

I did not mention it but I use Ninja with ZenFire and had it running side by side with TT (Trading Technologies platform) and it was just as fast if not faster.

I always strive to simplify everything I do and trading with one platform for both charting and execution stream lines the whole operation.

JCX

Whether this flaw costs you extra $$$ depends on your style of trading.

However, the first time I took this issue up with NT was nearly 8 years ago. 1 1/2 years ago Ray(Mr. #1 at NT) led me to believe this was going to fixed in NT7(his answer to me on another forum that has been removed). This issue over the years has also been raised by others on NT's own forum.

The point is...NT refuses to allow traders the option to change this offset...this leads to some traders (again depending on their style of trading) losing money needlessly.

The question becomes...Why? Why won't NT fix a flaw that can cost some of their customers extra $$$?

I think BeyondMP point is valid and I appreciate him bringing it forward.It is better to know than not to know.

There is no reason for ninja to put a 20 tick limit on stop-limit orders. For these trades the work-around is to submit them directly with your broker.

(The situation doesn't apply to me but it is still nice for him to share. BeyondMP could you give and example so I can understand better, please? - the best I could think of was 20 cents on an illiquid penny stock.)

There are reasons valid for stop-limit orders which is why they exist.

This thread was not to argue strategies of stop orders and that would be best in a new thread.

(I believe the first part of the quote is:
"An experienced workman buys the best tools he can afford."
.. and so the skilled workman does not blame his tools."
- I don't think you needed to put in the quote JCX )

Blue I think the point is, whether you have a one tick limit or a 20 tick limit, it's still a limit and subject to not getting filled. And that was the moral of the story I mentioned.

BeyondMP says it should be manually set by the user. That will not solve the dilemma. It's a stop limit and that is the nature of stop limits, sometimes they won't get filled. It's not a flaw, it's fact of using that order.

To blame software for the way an order works I just don't think is fair. So my quote stands! LOL!

JCX

Originally posted by JCX
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I will ask a few simple questions though to BeyondMP, Blue, and any other forum members.

1) Have you ever used the paid version of Ninja?
2) If you have used the paid version, did you personally experience losses due to a so called flaw in Ninja? Please give detailed examples of the trades and the resulting losses occurring from said flaw.
3) Do you trade for a living with trading providing your sole income?
4) How long have you been trading?

1. I am a paid user of NT.
2. I have personally experienced losses due to the flaw.
(Since NT readily admits to Stop Limit orders functioning as I describe and the loss of ticks that can occur, I see little reason to give detailed examples....If NT admits it occurs, I would presume that is the best proof available.)
3. Yes.
4. Trading for 35 years. As sole income...just over 10 years.

I see little value in these questions, as anyone would be able to perform their own due diligence and verify what I have said as true.