Tsunami Trading Educators
http://www.tsunami-trade.com/
Here comes another system--which costs a whopping $6500--that claims to use no indicators whatsoever, only proprietary charts, to day trade the ES. I swear these sites are multiplying faster than roaches in an old soup can. What is so special about trading on price action? It's been done ever since markets existed but lately has become so new and vogue.
I've taken the free trial a couple of times and I'm not impressed. It obviously is targeting the novice trader who has spent a lot of time and money on other trading tools and still is losing money. Who else but the desperate and/or naive would wire $6500 to someone's bank account who, like most others in this con game business, won't even disclose their name, let alone a phone number. In addition to sending your money in a non-recourse fashion, new members are required to sign an unbelievably one sided disclaimer http://www.tsunami-trade.com/disclaimer.html that doesn't even tell you where this company is located. In addition, a search under "who is" reveals an anonymous front hosting company (Tucows).
In fact, the guy who runs this shop (Blade) is so paranoid and secretive that he doesn't even let other members communicate amongst themselves away from the room. He totally forbids any sharing of emails, IM, or Skype and is lightening quick to erase any such posts. On several occasions I witnessed him bleeping out this type of info AND admonishing the person who posted.
What I found particularly interesting was the use of shills in the room to praise and tout the system to the folks who were in for free trial. This is a variation of the three card monte scam in which the people winning money right and left (in this case alleged "members" who expound the virtues of this system ad nauseum) lure the unsuspecting visitors to get on board. Blade himself is the biggest showman when he makes the right call on a trade, making it seem that the magic secret of interpreting price action through this so-called proprietary system is the answer to your dreams. And indeed, the website has all the bait with pictures of folks living their fantasy lives on some tropical island with a Ferrari in the driveway.
In the two weeks I spent in the room, I calculated a win rate of approximately 59% as defined by a trade making one point before hitting a 1.25 stop. No great shakes. Blade claims the system is "robust" in that it gives many signals during the trading session. (I witnessed 10 calls in one day.) When a trade gets stopped before profit Blade has a litany of excuses that are too long to mention in this thread; suffice it to say as any true conman, he knows how to put a spin on the negatives as if it really wasn't all that bad. For example, the market is "acting violently" and the price action, therefore, can't be properly discerned. Blame it on anything but the system. After a couple of quick stopouts in a row, he takes a break as moderator and the room sits in silence.
Although I'm not privy to his secret system, my observations tell me he uses a short term candlestick chart (10 or 15 minute) calling out buys at obvious support and sells at resistance. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of technical analysis and chart reading could easily make the same calls. I also believe he uses a modified pivot point for his early morning calls which I did find funny. (f X price is broken, expect to go to Y and if that is broken, the Z and vice versa for the upside).
The free trial is worth the price of admission for entertainment, but not much else.
Here comes another system--which costs a whopping $6500--that claims to use no indicators whatsoever, only proprietary charts, to day trade the ES. I swear these sites are multiplying faster than roaches in an old soup can. What is so special about trading on price action? It's been done ever since markets existed but lately has become so new and vogue.
I've taken the free trial a couple of times and I'm not impressed. It obviously is targeting the novice trader who has spent a lot of time and money on other trading tools and still is losing money. Who else but the desperate and/or naive would wire $6500 to someone's bank account who, like most others in this con game business, won't even disclose their name, let alone a phone number. In addition to sending your money in a non-recourse fashion, new members are required to sign an unbelievably one sided disclaimer http://www.tsunami-trade.com/disclaimer.html that doesn't even tell you where this company is located. In addition, a search under "who is" reveals an anonymous front hosting company (Tucows).
In fact, the guy who runs this shop (Blade) is so paranoid and secretive that he doesn't even let other members communicate amongst themselves away from the room. He totally forbids any sharing of emails, IM, or Skype and is lightening quick to erase any such posts. On several occasions I witnessed him bleeping out this type of info AND admonishing the person who posted.
What I found particularly interesting was the use of shills in the room to praise and tout the system to the folks who were in for free trial. This is a variation of the three card monte scam in which the people winning money right and left (in this case alleged "members" who expound the virtues of this system ad nauseum) lure the unsuspecting visitors to get on board. Blade himself is the biggest showman when he makes the right call on a trade, making it seem that the magic secret of interpreting price action through this so-called proprietary system is the answer to your dreams. And indeed, the website has all the bait with pictures of folks living their fantasy lives on some tropical island with a Ferrari in the driveway.
In the two weeks I spent in the room, I calculated a win rate of approximately 59% as defined by a trade making one point before hitting a 1.25 stop. No great shakes. Blade claims the system is "robust" in that it gives many signals during the trading session. (I witnessed 10 calls in one day.) When a trade gets stopped before profit Blade has a litany of excuses that are too long to mention in this thread; suffice it to say as any true conman, he knows how to put a spin on the negatives as if it really wasn't all that bad. For example, the market is "acting violently" and the price action, therefore, can't be properly discerned. Blame it on anything but the system. After a couple of quick stopouts in a row, he takes a break as moderator and the room sits in silence.
Although I'm not privy to his secret system, my observations tell me he uses a short term candlestick chart (10 or 15 minute) calling out buys at obvious support and sells at resistance. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of technical analysis and chart reading could easily make the same calls. I also believe he uses a modified pivot point for his early morning calls which I did find funny. (f X price is broken, expect to go to Y and if that is broken, the Z and vice versa for the upside).
The free trial is worth the price of admission for entertainment, but not much else.
I will certainly be the first in line to apologize if any of my comments were out of line. I'm not attacking, just looking for something believable.
Several people feel they have been ripped off for thousands of dollars by an unscrupulous vendor with a non-working method. They have openly provided facts to verify their statements. Then one guy comes on and says they are all wrong, the method works great. So we invite his input. But he gives not one iota of evidence. He freely and publicly tells the world how many points he made, but then says he won't discuss the details of his trading. What details? A simple entry and exit?
I don't know. Sounds fishy to me.
Several people feel they have been ripped off for thousands of dollars by an unscrupulous vendor with a non-working method. They have openly provided facts to verify their statements. Then one guy comes on and says they are all wrong, the method works great. So we invite his input. But he gives not one iota of evidence. He freely and publicly tells the world how many points he made, but then says he won't discuss the details of his trading. What details? A simple entry and exit?
I don't know. Sounds fishy to me.
I agree with you completely Felix..too many take things the wrong way and interpret things as "attacks". As I have said before I think these are the people to be careful of as they have something to hide..If your posting under this thread then you need to be able to take the "heat". Those who can't handle the replies and the tough questions should stick to other areas of this forum or else produce the goods... Max I get the feeling that you are pro-vendor ( don't ask me why but you can if you like...lol) and you seem to make it sound like we've lost so many people due to "confrontations". I don't beleive this to be true in general and let me ask you which people have we lost besides AHK and this PRV fellow? You said the following
"hey gang. an observation. many of you want answers from prl about his trades etc and a civil give and take turned into the third degree. now hes pissed and adios. hes not the first to get that treatment and split.
maybe more diplomacy and less aggressive cross examination would be more productive to keep people at the table. does that make sense?"
Now I agree that in general and on other threads we can all try to be more civil but if your someone who is posting on a thread like " Trading Advisory Services" then you open yourself up to a higher level of scrutiny...I don't want people at my table who plug vendors and can't deliver..no loss for me.....Now just because PRV was scrutinized on this thread it doesn't mean that everyone would treat them the same on another thread...so these people need to give the forum a chance too...it works both ways.....and why did you go from Max to Maxey...sorry but I couldn't help noticing..Why don't you type up some guidlines of what you think would be appropriate standard questions to ask to a vendor or someone who is defending one...or whatever you think it takes to keep things "smooth".
Bruce
"hey gang. an observation. many of you want answers from prl about his trades etc and a civil give and take turned into the third degree. now hes pissed and adios. hes not the first to get that treatment and split.
maybe more diplomacy and less aggressive cross examination would be more productive to keep people at the table. does that make sense?"
Now I agree that in general and on other threads we can all try to be more civil but if your someone who is posting on a thread like " Trading Advisory Services" then you open yourself up to a higher level of scrutiny...I don't want people at my table who plug vendors and can't deliver..no loss for me.....Now just because PRV was scrutinized on this thread it doesn't mean that everyone would treat them the same on another thread...so these people need to give the forum a chance too...it works both ways.....and why did you go from Max to Maxey...sorry but I couldn't help noticing..Why don't you type up some guidlines of what you think would be appropriate standard questions to ask to a vendor or someone who is defending one...or whatever you think it takes to keep things "smooth".
Bruce
quote:
Originally posted by felix
I will certainly be the first in line to apologize if any of my comments were out of line. I'm not attacking, just looking for something believable.
Several people feel they have been ripped off for thousands of dollars by an unscrupulous vendor with a non-working method. They have openly provided facts to verify their statements. Then one guy comes on and says they are all wrong, the method works great. So we invite his input. But he gives not one iota of evidence. He freely and publicly tells the world how many points he made, but then says he won't discuss the details of his trading. What details? A simple entry and exit?
I don't know. Sounds fishy to me.
felix - You have a good basic read on the situation.
I will say this in prl's defense. Having worked with many traders that were trained to use a specific trading system. It is always interesting to me how each trader will put their own personal twist on the system. Saying it another way, no two traders use a specific system in exactly the same way. I have encountered this phenomenon numerous times with different set's of traders and very different trading methods. Some will be successful, and others will fail.
So assuming prl is being reasonably honest in his comments, and genuinely wants to help his fellow tsunami traders. It would then be reasonable to believe he has found a way to use the basic tsunami system in a profitable way. I am willing to give prl the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. This however raises a potential problem for prl, because if he is in reality not trading tsunami profitably, and is actually in the same boat as redsioux and others here. Then he is defending the system in spite of its actual performance, and is not willing to face reality. If this is the actual case, he is cutting himself off from the help he needs to rectify this problem. Better to be honest up front and deal directly with the problem.
bruce im not pro vendor. im not con vendor. and im not defending prl or anyone else. im too new in this trading scheme to understand what vendors can do to help traders. my point is that if the discussion turns to name calling its value has deteriorated and whatever chance the forum had of getting what it was after is gone. i dont know about others but i was taught manners and respect for other people even if i didnt agree with them. calling prl a shill was totally unnecessary and imature in my opinion. he got pissed off and now the entire forum suffers. stop acting like a pack wolves and try diplomacy. you might be happier with the results. if you think im full of fecal matter than just chuck what im saying and ignore me. my feelings wont get hurt.
why is it important if I sign max, maxey, waxey maxey, maxster, maxout or other nicknames ive been called in my life. what are driving at or implying? am I the next one in your crosshairs?
why is it important if I sign max, maxey, waxey maxey, maxster, maxout or other nicknames ive been called in my life. what are driving at or implying? am I the next one in your crosshairs?
I was just curious as to your name change..nothing more..( it is not important) but when you get a chance perhaps you can answer my question regarding the people who have left as I don't keep track of who stays or goes.....It just seems like for someone who is a newbie you spend more time on threads that don't specifically relate to all the trading setups that are posted here ( remember you asked about them but don't pose many questions reagrding them in any thread I currently view). And I am not just refering to mine....but I haven't visited the Market profile or other threads in a while so perhaps you have been posting a lot of questions regarding trading methods at other places..I will check.Perhaps I got the wrong impression from you in the begining and that is my fault..Just seems like you are more interested in vendors at this time which is perfectly fine . please don't throw out the "your not being nice to me Bruce and I'm going to leave the forum too" card...some people do these things in an attempt to get the moderator/owner pissed off at the thought of losing people. I think Guy is a very fair person and doesn't interfere and keeps quality people around.....so stick around...
Cousin Brucie
Cousin Brucie
quote:
Originally posted by BruceM
...some people do these things in an attempt to get the moderator/owner pissed off at the thought of losing people. I think Guy is a very fair person and doesn't interfere and keeps quality people around.....so stick around...
I'm a firm believer in freedom and freedom of the press and the right for anybody to say anything even if I disagree with it. There are plenty of things that have been said on the forum that I disagree with and attitudes that I disagree with but it is your right to express anything anyway that you want.
The only times that I will edit or delete a post is if it is illegal, for example racism, sexism, spamming etc.
this is in 2 parts. one for bruce and one for day
bruce the other person as you pointed out is ahk. both you and day said he was a valuable member. after reading his topics on nonzoo services i agree. so its a loss for the forum.
when i started posting my focus was on learning to trade the best i could with the shortest path and that led to these advisory services. by the looks of things this is where the action is. before i asked for good setups from successful traders that thread was sorta dormant. your setup was appreciated by the way. i have no interest in learning market theory or many of the other technical systems that may or may not work. call me lazy. at this stage in my life i cant afford to devote a decade of mistakes. i admit im a slow study so my interest is in learning from someone who has been there done that and demonstrates success directly through a teaching and real time trading vehicle such as a room. can these advisories get me where i want to be? i dont know but its worth checking out to see. if i cant find one then as i said before i won't trade. the odds are frighteningly stacked against traders and im tired of reading books about circles, waves, triangles, pitchforks, fans and bands. it sounds like gibberish to me. what i havent read is a book by a real daytrader who makes trading his fulltime job and shows simple setups that he uses to succeed which puts him in the rarefied air known as the 10% club.
day im not asking you to edit or censor anything. that was not my message. my point was that one can catch more bees with honey than swatting them with newspaper and members who want something from others might consider altering their approach in dealing with their fellow man or woman. seems to me the beat em up and see if they can still stand method isnt working.
but what do i know? im just a newbie right?
max
bruce the other person as you pointed out is ahk. both you and day said he was a valuable member. after reading his topics on nonzoo services i agree. so its a loss for the forum.
when i started posting my focus was on learning to trade the best i could with the shortest path and that led to these advisory services. by the looks of things this is where the action is. before i asked for good setups from successful traders that thread was sorta dormant. your setup was appreciated by the way. i have no interest in learning market theory or many of the other technical systems that may or may not work. call me lazy. at this stage in my life i cant afford to devote a decade of mistakes. i admit im a slow study so my interest is in learning from someone who has been there done that and demonstrates success directly through a teaching and real time trading vehicle such as a room. can these advisories get me where i want to be? i dont know but its worth checking out to see. if i cant find one then as i said before i won't trade. the odds are frighteningly stacked against traders and im tired of reading books about circles, waves, triangles, pitchforks, fans and bands. it sounds like gibberish to me. what i havent read is a book by a real daytrader who makes trading his fulltime job and shows simple setups that he uses to succeed which puts him in the rarefied air known as the 10% club.
day im not asking you to edit or censor anything. that was not my message. my point was that one can catch more bees with honey than swatting them with newspaper and members who want something from others might consider altering their approach in dealing with their fellow man or woman. seems to me the beat em up and see if they can still stand method isnt working.
but what do i know? im just a newbie right?
max
The honey/newspaper analogy is a good one. Suffice to say that I don't police the forum by telling people how to behave. I feel that an opinion about how you would like people to participate in the forums carries a lot more credence than if it were to come from me. The forum is "for traders by traders" and so the traders using the forum should express how they would prefer other members to behave.
Hi Max...I think this is where I get confused..you are teling us here that you have explored many concepts in books etc...and then later on you refer to your self as a newbie...so to be honest I get mixed messages from you......I don't recall saying anything too positive regarding AHK or the trading zoo..although he seemed to embrace my general apology to the board as if it was directed at him..perhaps I am wrong and you can go back and find the positive stuff I said about him if you wish...I don't actually remember.....Your comments are well taken regarding the "honey " etc...I will admit here that I am personally a bit jaded to most vendors and I think being a daytrader for so many years has made me a bit distorted when it comes to social graces ( I know that statemnet will come back someday and bite me in the butt...lol)..so I will send you a personal and direct apology if I too have said anything to bother you in any way....for what it is worth and I look forward to hearing about your free trials too...and thanks so much for addressing that specific question that I asked....You can have the last word here if you wish but I will ungracefully bow out of this thread for now and let the Tsunami folks get back to doing there "thing"
Bruce
Bruce
quote:
Originally posted by max
im tired of reading books about circles, waves, triangles, pitchforks, fans and bands. it sounds like gibberish to me. what i havent read is a book by a real daytrader who makes trading his fulltime job and shows simple setups that he uses to succeed which puts him in the rarefied air known as the 10% club.
but what do i know? im just a newbie right?
max
Max,
Like many of us, you want to learn from somebody who is successful. The Trading Advisory Services board is an excellent way for a group to wade through the garbage and find the real thing. Of necessity, anyone who makes big claims finds a lot of questions coming their way. I for one am thankful that uncooperative vendors have been exposed here. It's too bad they decided to leave, but now I know where NOT to spend my money. What a great service!
Regarding your comment about namecalling. I did not exactly call PRL a shill. I told him he was being given an opportunity to prove that he was not. I was sincere about that, and was hoping he would respond. He repeatedly dodged the questions and I wanted to get to the point. If that's classified as namecalling, then I humbly apologize before all who are still reading this thread, including PRL if you are looking in.
I would love to give a guy the benefit of any doubt. As PT said, different people can trade the same method with different results. How true. If we all play the same calls, at the end of the day we will all show different figures. This does allow for the possibility that PRL (or any others) are trading Tsunami with success. However, any person of character would not enter a debate making strong assertions, and then run away when asked for supporting evidence. That behavior smacks of insincerity.
An honest person has nothing to hide. And this forum seems to work quite well in determining who is hiding something. So keep it up guys. Collective due diligence - I love it!
Like many of us, you want to learn from somebody who is successful. The Trading Advisory Services board is an excellent way for a group to wade through the garbage and find the real thing. Of necessity, anyone who makes big claims finds a lot of questions coming their way. I for one am thankful that uncooperative vendors have been exposed here. It's too bad they decided to leave, but now I know where NOT to spend my money. What a great service!
Regarding your comment about namecalling. I did not exactly call PRL a shill. I told him he was being given an opportunity to prove that he was not. I was sincere about that, and was hoping he would respond. He repeatedly dodged the questions and I wanted to get to the point. If that's classified as namecalling, then I humbly apologize before all who are still reading this thread, including PRL if you are looking in.
I would love to give a guy the benefit of any doubt. As PT said, different people can trade the same method with different results. How true. If we all play the same calls, at the end of the day we will all show different figures. This does allow for the possibility that PRL (or any others) are trading Tsunami with success. However, any person of character would not enter a debate making strong assertions, and then run away when asked for supporting evidence. That behavior smacks of insincerity.
An honest person has nothing to hide. And this forum seems to work quite well in determining who is hiding something. So keep it up guys. Collective due diligence - I love it!
Is blade's name John by the way? From what i ve seen, his latest scam is TsuBot, which he claims has an extremely high win rate in all markets. Watching it trade live, it's obvious that reality is much different. Interesting that he only takes into account the first profit target which is no more than eg 3 ES ticks or 5 GBP/USD pips (which is really 2 after spread which he totally ignores, but that should be expected as he has never placed a real trade himself). The corresponding stop loss is several times larger, a sure recipe for disaster. Avoid them at ALL costs no matter how tempted you feel to waste 6-7k
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