W. D. Gann, 4 February 2012, important date
4 February 2012 is an important day in the Gann universe.
The Gann Wheel, what most people probably think of as the Square of Nine, is sometimes called a "Square Root Calculator" a Pivot Calculator or a device that "Squares the Circle." This simple illustration may explain how and why these terms came about. You probably recognize that the illustration is just the first few rings of a Gann Wheel with the numeral "1" at the center.
31 32 33 34 35 36 37
30 13 14 15 16 17 38
29 12 3 4 5 18 39
28 11 2 1 6 19 40
27 10 9 8 7 20 41
26 25 24 23 22 21 42
49 48 47 46 45 44 43
In Square of Nine parlance we say things like 19 is 90 degrees from 15. That makes sense only if you can visualize that this rectangular table of numbers is enclosed in a circle (or series of circles) of 360 degrees. In this case, the number 19 is 1/4 the way around the circle from the number 15, or 90 degrees in circumference from 15. The number 34 is directly above the number 15 and positioned one circumference or one ring outside the circle that contains the number 15. In the same sense that we can say that 19 is 90 degrees from 15, we can say that 34 is 360 degrees from 15, or one complete rotation of the circle from 15. That explains where squaring the circle comes from. A more accurate expression would be that we're circling the square but that never did catch on.
HOW TO ROTATE AROUND THE GANN WHEEL
Here's where it gets fun. The square root of 15 is 3.87. Add two to the square root of 15 and we get 5.87. Square 5.87 and we get 34.49 which rounds to 34. Now we know that adding two to the square root of a number and squaring that sum is the same thing as a 360 degree rotation up on the Gann Wheel. If "2" represents a 360 degree rotation then "1" represents a 180 degree rotation, "0.5" a 90 degree rotation, and so on. W.D. Gann tells us that 90 degrees in very important in the stock market. What Gann is saying is that adding and subtracting .5 (and exact multiples or proportions of .5) to the square root of a stock price and then squaring the result is very important! There is is another school of Gann thought that will say that Gann's reference to 90 degrees relates to the movement of celestial bodies. We've looked into that and they may be right, but for our purposes we've also learned that these schools of thought can peacefully exist alongside each other without contradiction.
That can be a little hard to get your brain around after spending years studying chart patterns, exotic moving averages, and oscillators. Price and time become interchangeable by converting them to degrees of a circle. Squares and square roots are part of that process. Once price and time are conceptualized in degrees of concentric circles we could care less about their magnitude. At that point we care only about their orbital relationship. Are they in opposition, conjunction or square?
Namaste
The Gann Wheel, what most people probably think of as the Square of Nine, is sometimes called a "Square Root Calculator" a Pivot Calculator or a device that "Squares the Circle." This simple illustration may explain how and why these terms came about. You probably recognize that the illustration is just the first few rings of a Gann Wheel with the numeral "1" at the center.
31 32 33 34 35 36 37
30 13 14 15 16 17 38
29 12 3 4 5 18 39
28 11 2 1 6 19 40
27 10 9 8 7 20 41
26 25 24 23 22 21 42
49 48 47 46 45 44 43
In Square of Nine parlance we say things like 19 is 90 degrees from 15. That makes sense only if you can visualize that this rectangular table of numbers is enclosed in a circle (or series of circles) of 360 degrees. In this case, the number 19 is 1/4 the way around the circle from the number 15, or 90 degrees in circumference from 15. The number 34 is directly above the number 15 and positioned one circumference or one ring outside the circle that contains the number 15. In the same sense that we can say that 19 is 90 degrees from 15, we can say that 34 is 360 degrees from 15, or one complete rotation of the circle from 15. That explains where squaring the circle comes from. A more accurate expression would be that we're circling the square but that never did catch on.
HOW TO ROTATE AROUND THE GANN WHEEL
Here's where it gets fun. The square root of 15 is 3.87. Add two to the square root of 15 and we get 5.87. Square 5.87 and we get 34.49 which rounds to 34. Now we know that adding two to the square root of a number and squaring that sum is the same thing as a 360 degree rotation up on the Gann Wheel. If "2" represents a 360 degree rotation then "1" represents a 180 degree rotation, "0.5" a 90 degree rotation, and so on. W.D. Gann tells us that 90 degrees in very important in the stock market. What Gann is saying is that adding and subtracting .5 (and exact multiples or proportions of .5) to the square root of a stock price and then squaring the result is very important! There is is another school of Gann thought that will say that Gann's reference to 90 degrees relates to the movement of celestial bodies. We've looked into that and they may be right, but for our purposes we've also learned that these schools of thought can peacefully exist alongside each other without contradiction.
That can be a little hard to get your brain around after spending years studying chart patterns, exotic moving averages, and oscillators. Price and time become interchangeable by converting them to degrees of a circle. Squares and square roots are part of that process. Once price and time are conceptualized in degrees of concentric circles we could care less about their magnitude. At that point we care only about their orbital relationship. Are they in opposition, conjunction or square?
Namaste
Hunter was correct when he said, no one had broached the Gann topic. When I decided to study Gann, I used the search function on this site, all I found was Charter Joe's sq of 9 thread & some of Roofer's charts. When someone new comes here to learn as we all have & does a search for WD Gann all they will see is the sq of 9 thread & THIS thread. So for the people who are here to learn, not read criticism, why don't we keep it positive & informative, the 2/4 date has come & gone. Let it go. I explained why some Gann dates work & some don't.
Bruce, DT & others have referred to Charter Joe & Koolblue both as one of the most respected members on our forum, I couldn't agree more, we have learned a lot from Joe & Kool. I've read KoolsTools at least 5 times bc his work amazed me as it did many others. Bruce posted "Kool Blue is the only person I've ever seen that could predict & trade it in real-time" and yes he can do it!! Here is a FYI for everyone, if you take the time to study Gann, which isn't simple, quick or easy you will learn everything that's in KoolsTools, the sq of 9 thread & more. Some of our most respected members use Gann in their analysis. Charter Joe posted "The sq of nine goes deep I use it on days bars highs/lows and a deadly(!!!!) dated square of nine that gives S/R lines every day and changes as the calendar rolls on by" Gio5959 shared an excel program to do sq of 9 dates etc. The greatest amount of volume for any instrument is usually during pit trading hours. Pit/Floor-traders use Gann, pivots & their math, they don't have pretty charts with indicators. They do it the hard way, Gann is math, all highs & lows are related by mathematics. Gann is a study of time and price, time being the most important, like Kool's bar counts.
For the newbies, to make it easier for you. If you want to study/learn Gann, it's not as popular in the US as in other countries, that makes it harder to find accurate info you can understand & use. Australia has the best Gann software, http://www.market-analyst.com/gann-edition it's not for the novice, but is considered by many including http://www.wdgann.com/ to be the best. If you want a free & easy way to get a basic understanding of Gann,, do a google search for "The Definitive Guide to Forecasting Using WD Gann's Square of Nine" PDF it's out there, free, read the book, then do a 30 day free trial with the Market Warrior software, it gets data from the web so there are no data fees or problems. The software is very similar to the Harmonic Trader software, kinda home grown & shaky with an instructional E-book to go with it. The software has chapters from the book you can ad to your bar chart from the studies section, a chart is worth a thousand words, it's a great starting point, you can learn forecasting,, the sq of 9, the sq of 52 & the sq of 144.. After that if you want to know more do a google for Gann's master courses on commodities & stocks, they're on the web free if you search. There is a Yahoo group http://www.wheelsinthesky.com/?Nav_ID=videos they claim to have all Gann's books for download if you pay $60 to join their group. If you want to go deeper, you'll need to study the Jim Hurst cycles, google it, it's out there,,there is an old Ultimate Gann course by an Aussie, I think his name is David Bowden, it sold for around $8900 it's old but so is Gann. There are sites that sell it for a couple hundred or less if you search.
Bruce, DT & others have referred to Charter Joe & Koolblue both as one of the most respected members on our forum, I couldn't agree more, we have learned a lot from Joe & Kool. I've read KoolsTools at least 5 times bc his work amazed me as it did many others. Bruce posted "Kool Blue is the only person I've ever seen that could predict & trade it in real-time" and yes he can do it!! Here is a FYI for everyone, if you take the time to study Gann, which isn't simple, quick or easy you will learn everything that's in KoolsTools, the sq of 9 thread & more. Some of our most respected members use Gann in their analysis. Charter Joe posted "The sq of nine goes deep I use it on days bars highs/lows and a deadly(!!!!) dated square of nine that gives S/R lines every day and changes as the calendar rolls on by" Gio5959 shared an excel program to do sq of 9 dates etc. The greatest amount of volume for any instrument is usually during pit trading hours. Pit/Floor-traders use Gann, pivots & their math, they don't have pretty charts with indicators. They do it the hard way, Gann is math, all highs & lows are related by mathematics. Gann is a study of time and price, time being the most important, like Kool's bar counts.
For the newbies, to make it easier for you. If you want to study/learn Gann, it's not as popular in the US as in other countries, that makes it harder to find accurate info you can understand & use. Australia has the best Gann software, http://www.market-analyst.com/gann-edition it's not for the novice, but is considered by many including http://www.wdgann.com/ to be the best. If you want a free & easy way to get a basic understanding of Gann,, do a google search for "The Definitive Guide to Forecasting Using WD Gann's Square of Nine" PDF it's out there, free, read the book, then do a 30 day free trial with the Market Warrior software, it gets data from the web so there are no data fees or problems. The software is very similar to the Harmonic Trader software, kinda home grown & shaky with an instructional E-book to go with it. The software has chapters from the book you can ad to your bar chart from the studies section, a chart is worth a thousand words, it's a great starting point, you can learn forecasting,, the sq of 9, the sq of 52 & the sq of 144.. After that if you want to know more do a google for Gann's master courses on commodities & stocks, they're on the web free if you search. There is a Yahoo group http://www.wheelsinthesky.com/?Nav_ID=videos they claim to have all Gann's books for download if you pay $60 to join their group. If you want to go deeper, you'll need to study the Jim Hurst cycles, google it, it's out there,,there is an old Ultimate Gann course by an Aussie, I think his name is David Bowden, it sold for around $8900 it's old but so is Gann. There are sites that sell it for a couple hundred or less if you search.
Originally posted by Hunter
Hi,
My thoughts may not reasonate with you, as it does with others. Maybe STAYLOR455 has a more effective communication style that will serve you with a greater understanding of the W. D. Gann methodologies. He has done his homework.
If my explainations of the (3, -1) formula were not delivered with real time candlestick interpretation, explaining more complex abstractions wouldn't be time efficient. I am sure STAYLOR455 would be happy to direct you to a library of W. D. Gann links and books. With respect to the Delta Society's "Delta Phenomenon" I suggest that you buy the software, and not attempt to interpret their sequence formula by just reading the book.
You have a knack for making tangential (and irrelevant) replies to specific questions.
Staylor...I've cut up your post to focus on a few things.....As I mentioned in my previous post about follow up and accountability....the date came and failed but little was said and you now want us to forget about it too.......that is something the Gann educators would want to do too.....pretend that the bad calls don't happen.....so based on just the title of this thread and what has been said the Gann Turn did not take place and it didn't seem "important"...I think we can all at least agree on that fact...
Read the title of this thread and that is where the focus should be ...I suggest a new thread like " All things Gann" then we can dump all this gann stuff in there
How do you know what the pit floor traders use? Too often we assume we know what people use but how can we be sure...R u a floor trader and if so what PIT..? We can never just believe what someone types on a forum,,,,so I question that statement....
I say you start a new thread and put all those great resources there...I look forward to your answers
Read the title of this thread and that is where the focus should be ...I suggest a new thread like " All things Gann" then we can dump all this gann stuff in there
How do you know what the pit floor traders use? Too often we assume we know what people use but how can we be sure...R u a floor trader and if so what PIT..? We can never just believe what someone types on a forum,,,,so I question that statement....
I say you start a new thread and put all those great resources there...I look forward to your answers
Originally posted by staylor455
So for the people who are here to learn, not read criticism, why don't we keep it positive & informative, the 2/4 date has come & gone. Let it go. I explained why some Gann dates work & some don't.
The greatest amount of volume for any instrument is usually during pit trading hours. Pit/Floor-traders use Gann, pivots & their math, they don't have pretty charts with indicators. They do it the hard way, Gann is math, all highs & lows are related by mathematics. Gann is a study of time and price, time being the most important, like Kool's bar counts.
Clear burn criticism misses the facts and denies them entirely. Traders study and learn, unless of course they insist that they are the oracle of all things trading. .Nothing is perfect and pure, e.g., the moving averages, histograms, ... oscillators, etc., but we as traders entertain the credence of past performance. As anyone who has ever been in a healthy relationship with a woman, their spotting may start early, or late, but usually not as on command by an un-happy man who tears down the intellectual research (not intellectually sloth). However, bullies are critics, and cfritics are bullies. That's enough to stress anyone.
Staylor455, thanks for sharing the DX 64 cycle target. Thoughtful of you to add a unique observation to an open ended post. Some of the techniques that floor traders apply to to trading are not only popula, but profitable.
Namaste
Staylor455, thanks for sharing the DX 64 cycle target. Thoughtful of you to add a unique observation to an open ended post. Some of the techniques that floor traders apply to to trading are not only popula, but profitable.
Namaste
here are my current thoughts on Hunter in a separate thread:
http://www.mypivots.com/board/topic/7252/1/my-thoughts-on-hunter
http://www.mypivots.com/board/topic/7252/1/my-thoughts-on-hunter
Follow up & accountability.. In my post on Sunday 2/6 I said: Problem is there are many ways to calculate Gann dates, adding trading days & calendar days from a major swing high or low using the square of 9 calculator, when TDs & CDs match on the same 45,90,270 etc. angles, it's a "potential turning point", the 180 & 0 angles carry more weight, some use excel for square of 9 dates. Depending on where you start the count from, will determine which days match up, so you could count from 3 major pivots & get several different dates. Another method for Gann dates is to measure time from a major high to a major low & use the square root formula to project price, or you can measure time from low to low or high to high.. It's something to be aware of, a tool of judgment like anything else IMO.
Follow up & accountability: Bruce, how do you know what Gann educators would want to do? I've never heard or read of any Gann educator who mentioned or made reference to "the wheel" you said you wish someone would update from Ganns day. Too often we assume we know what people teach or use but how can we be sure... Are you a Gann educator? We can never just believe what someone types on a forum,,,,so I question those statements.... Maybe it was a mistake & you were talking about Gann vendors. Anyone can post an article, call it well balanced & could read the opposite of the one you posted. But what's the point? Articles are just someone elses opinion that gets paid to write.
From my experience as a student, Gann educators teach hand drawing charts going back at least 100 years to determine where we are within the 100 & 30 year cycle all the way down to current, they use Hurst cycles, FFT and other algorithms to configure & match current to past cycles & times. Gann educators will tell you there is nothing new, what is happening now has happened before & will happen again because human nature never changes, thus we have cycles. It takes months to put that kind of work together. Now, was Hunter's date calculated that way? I seriously doubt it, most dates are done with excel, the quick & easy way. That is why I called Hunter's date a tool of judgment, something to be aware of. I said "let it go" bc I got tired of reading uninformed criticism of Gann's work & the thread was getting a negative tone. I gave a detailed explaination over the weekend of why the date may or may not work. That's why you take Gann dates with a grain of salt, bc they are done the easy way. If Gann predicting is going to be accurate. It is NOT easy. Gann was a mathematician, Hurst a rocket scientist. Who is going to go thru all that & sell you dates for a few $ per month?
Follow up & accountability: I was told by a former Chicago floortrader that floor-traders use some Gann analysis, I have spoken with other traders that have known or do know a floor trader & heard the same from them. So the evidence is hear say, no eye witness.
Maybe another thread would have been better, the thought of a Gann learning thread did cross my mind last year. But I got started on this one, it was here & it'll come up if someone does a Gann search. Yesterdays post was for the benefit of people like myself who want to learn how & what KoolBlue did, but don't have a clue where to start. If I had read my newbie paragraph a few years ago it would have saved me a LOT of time.
Follow up & accountability: Bruce, how do you know what Gann educators would want to do? I've never heard or read of any Gann educator who mentioned or made reference to "the wheel" you said you wish someone would update from Ganns day. Too often we assume we know what people teach or use but how can we be sure... Are you a Gann educator? We can never just believe what someone types on a forum,,,,so I question those statements.... Maybe it was a mistake & you were talking about Gann vendors. Anyone can post an article, call it well balanced & could read the opposite of the one you posted. But what's the point? Articles are just someone elses opinion that gets paid to write.
From my experience as a student, Gann educators teach hand drawing charts going back at least 100 years to determine where we are within the 100 & 30 year cycle all the way down to current, they use Hurst cycles, FFT and other algorithms to configure & match current to past cycles & times. Gann educators will tell you there is nothing new, what is happening now has happened before & will happen again because human nature never changes, thus we have cycles. It takes months to put that kind of work together. Now, was Hunter's date calculated that way? I seriously doubt it, most dates are done with excel, the quick & easy way. That is why I called Hunter's date a tool of judgment, something to be aware of. I said "let it go" bc I got tired of reading uninformed criticism of Gann's work & the thread was getting a negative tone. I gave a detailed explaination over the weekend of why the date may or may not work. That's why you take Gann dates with a grain of salt, bc they are done the easy way. If Gann predicting is going to be accurate. It is NOT easy. Gann was a mathematician, Hurst a rocket scientist. Who is going to go thru all that & sell you dates for a few $ per month?
Follow up & accountability: I was told by a former Chicago floortrader that floor-traders use some Gann analysis, I have spoken with other traders that have known or do know a floor trader & heard the same from them. So the evidence is hear say, no eye witness.
Maybe another thread would have been better, the thought of a Gann learning thread did cross my mind last year. But I got started on this one, it was here & it'll come up if someone does a Gann search. Yesterdays post was for the benefit of people like myself who want to learn how & what KoolBlue did, but don't have a clue where to start. If I had read my newbie paragraph a few years ago it would have saved me a LOT of time.
I was specifically talking about Hunter as he started the thread...I say we need to have a new Gann thread with examples and market calls from the folks who know Gann...I think us traders love examples that work....
We also don't need to put in any extra time on methods that have not been shown to work...who actually has extra time for that?
Then we can decide if we want to persue the method....we know Kool has demontrated his ability...so we can study Kools ideas...I don't know his history and since all us traders steal from other ideas I don't think we can just say that Kools work is derived from Gann...perhaps Kool can straighten us out but not sure that it is important...
the real point is that nobody wants to reinvent the wheel ( no pun intended) and nobody wants to spend loads of time or money on ideas that haven't been shown to work.
I look forward to the gann examples so I can follow along. Most times posters won't give us examples over a broad amount of time because they can't get the ideas to work themselves. Perhaps you or somebody can prove this to be an incorrect assumption.
Bruce
We also don't need to put in any extra time on methods that have not been shown to work...who actually has extra time for that?
Then we can decide if we want to persue the method....we know Kool has demontrated his ability...so we can study Kools ideas...I don't know his history and since all us traders steal from other ideas I don't think we can just say that Kools work is derived from Gann...perhaps Kool can straighten us out but not sure that it is important...
the real point is that nobody wants to reinvent the wheel ( no pun intended) and nobody wants to spend loads of time or money on ideas that haven't been shown to work.
I look forward to the gann examples so I can follow along. Most times posters won't give us examples over a broad amount of time because they can't get the ideas to work themselves. Perhaps you or somebody can prove this to be an incorrect assumption.
Bruce
Originally posted by BruceM
Most times posters won't give us examples over a broad amount of time because they can't get the ideas to work themselves. Perhaps you or somebody can prove this to be an incorrect assumption.
Bruce
I know this is off topic.
Thru my own experience here, I found giving examples leads to a much larger commitment than one might want. It is a rare individual that has the personality and time to answer the same question over and over; then realize the person asking the question has little interest in putting in the "hard work" needed. But, just, wants something handed to them on the proverbial "silver platter".
I take my hat off to Bruce for his ability to unselfishly help others.
As to Hunter: If I can't understand what someone is talking about, I move on, quickly. Life is to short to try and decipher the riddles of a deficient personality. As my Old Man said, "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s**t. And, only a fool or a madman would even try."
well said and good points BeyondMP
To be brutally honest, I'm not good enough with Gann analysis to show & teach major turning points w direction that will work consistently, my focus has never been on the longer term moves. I've been taught & have a basic understanding of a lot more in the longer term Gann predictions than I have practiced. I've only been studying Gann for a couple years. I don't have the patience or work ethic to figure cycles,count cycles, buy chart paper & draw a 100 yr chart on my wall, I don't care where markets go, if the daily chart goes there the hourly has to go first.
What I have done is take tid bits here n there from Gann's work & used them as tools. I calculate dates the easy way, calculate hourly & 15 min bars the easy way, it doesn't give me an exact turning point or a direction, it does give me a time when a move is more likely to happen bc of the time factor. One thing Kool & Gann have in common is they both count bars from one swing pivot to another & project to the next. I don't like the constant counting so I measure the most common trend time & the 2nd most common trend time adjust my Gann angled segments to the average trend times and scalp to the next swing pivot. Keep it simple.
What I have done is take tid bits here n there from Gann's work & used them as tools. I calculate dates the easy way, calculate hourly & 15 min bars the easy way, it doesn't give me an exact turning point or a direction, it does give me a time when a move is more likely to happen bc of the time factor. One thing Kool & Gann have in common is they both count bars from one swing pivot to another & project to the next. I don't like the constant counting so I measure the most common trend time & the 2nd most common trend time adjust my Gann angled segments to the average trend times and scalp to the next swing pivot. Keep it simple.
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